2014 surging

Today, I noticed when I was in 3rd. gear going about 45 mph., and holding the throttle steady, I had a constant surging that didn't go away until I rolled on the throttle or, shifted gears. Anyone else have this issue?

Check the 2nd page of his section. There is a thread regarding a 2013 with surging issues. I have 2013 but have not had surging issues. Good luck!

No surging here.

laitken1 said:

Today, I noticed when I was in 3rd. gear going about 45 mph., and holding the throttle steady, I had a constant surging that didn't go away until I rolled on the throttle or, shifted gears. Anyone else have this issue?

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There are some here


http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1006827

TPS Reset

laitken 1 try to do whats known as TPS sync.The throttle position sensor my need to be balanced again.This was done with LT'S, Although may apply to throttle by wire.
Turn key on let bike go through self test,next rotate throttle to stop and release 2 times then start bike. See what happens, it may not cure the problem but the TPS reset seemed to have made my RTW a bit better.

Am I experiencing surging?

On my 2013 K16GT I noticed that when I am modulating a constant speed, in any gear, where the throttle is barely cracked the engine seems to surge. In other words; For example, before entering a turn, I may roll off throttle, use engine compression & a little brake to reduce speed and then just crack the throttle to maintain speed until I apex and then roll out of the turn accelerating. It seems that the fly by wire system gets confused with a repetitive cycle of sending some fuel and then choking it off producing a sensation of acceleration followed by engine compression. It screws up my line in a curve and can be startling when modulating speed in slow traffic. I am either accelerating or decelerating but no in between.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I will give the throttle twist a try. If the problem persists, I will ask the techs at the dealer to check it out. The service techs here are top notch at resolving issues.

2014 gsw

Mine has a surge with neutral or slightly trailing throttle, low load conditions, 3200-3800 RPM in the lower gears.

Basically, it's a pain to ride in a town with a 25mph speed limit or in stop and go traffic. You can accelerate through the surge smoothly, but if you have to hold a low and constant road speed that puts you at 3200-3800 RPM in 1st or 2nd (and sometimes 3rd) gear, the bike bucks a little, like a 4-cylinder bike that's misfiring on one cylinder.

2 visits to the BMW dealer have not been helpful. They say it's just a characteristic of the drive-by-wire system or driveline lash. It's not the latter for sure; my R1200R had much more of that than this bike, and I know what it feels like.

My theory is that it's just lean surge. I've fitted an AF-XIED lambda manipulator kit from Beemer Boneyard, and it's helped but not cured the problem. I'm running it on setting 7 for now, which is just 4% fuel enrichment. If it still surges after the BMSK is more fully adapted, I'll try setting 8, which is 5% (lambda=0.95.)

The bike runs much nicer now at low RPM, by the way. I find myself using higher gears with satisfactory performance down to about 2500 RPM.

I hate to mess with the bike under warranty, but I really need it to be smoother than the way it was around town. The extra power is a bonus.

Cheers

TomR1200 said:

Mine has a surge with neutral or slightly trailing throttle, low load conditions, 3200-3800 RPM in the lower gears.

Basically, it's a pain to ride in a town with a 25mph speed limit or in stop and go traffic. You can accelerate through the surge smoothly, but if you have to hold a low and constant road speed that puts you at 3200-3800 RPM in 1st or 2nd (and sometimes 3rd) gear, the bike bucks a little, like a 4-cylinder bike that's misfiring on one cylinder.

My theory is that it's just lean surge. I've fitted an AF-XIED lambda manipulator kit from Beemer Boneyard, and it's helped but not cured the problem. I'm running it on setting 7 for now, which is just 4% fuel enrichment. If it still surges after the BMSK is more fully adapted, I'll try setting 8, which is 5% (lambda=0.95.)

The bike runs much nicer now at low RPM, by the way. I find myself using higher gears with satisfactory performance down to about 2500 RPM.

I hate to mess with the bike under warranty, but I really need it to be smoother than the way it was around town. The extra power is a bonus.

Cheers

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I think I have your clone. Please keep us posted on the Af-Xied results. As you know, they want a lot of money for that kit and I want to make sure it works before I go that route.

Did 150 miles today and once out of town, I do not notice the surging anymore. But in town it can drive you nuts.

Also, Rain mode is smoother in town, and for now, I switch to Rain mode in town/commuting. The surging is still there but not as bad as in Road mode.

Otherwise, I sure do like this bike. Looking forward to some longer trips this fall.

k75s said:

I think I have your clone. Please keep us posted on the Af-Xied results. As you know, they want a lot of money for that kit and I want to make sure it works before I go that route.

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Hello K75S.

I've been experimenting with the AF-XIED for about 600 miles now. I've got it on setting "8" which is 5% richer than stock everywhere. You have to ride the bike for several tankfuls after each setting change for the BMSK controller to "adapt," but I'm pleased with the results so far.

I was out on a long ride today and I can honestly say that it's now possible to ride the bike comfortably one gear higher than stock if you care to. I can't say if it's running cooler or not, as some people have reported, because my installation coincided with the arrival of some autumnal weather here in Virginia. My right leg is no longer hotter than my left, but it's 65, so who knows?

I'm still getting a flat spot right at 3800 RPM. If I'm in the lower three gears, and I hold 3800 as the road levels out or goes very slightly downhill, it feels like the bike is "toggling." I can see a movement in the tach needle. It is MUCH better with the AF-XIED installed though, and the bike is still going 200 miles before the low fuel warning comes on, so I'm not wasting scads of gas.

Each of us attaches a different value to $379, and each of us attaches a different importance to getting the fueling gnats-ass perfect, so I can't offer you any advice there. The install is very easy, and the kit makes a lasting improvement to the bike, but so far it hasn't done 100% of what I'd hoped it would. I'll let you know if it smoothes out some more.

I had a thought: could the 3800 RPM oscillation be a cycling/defective exhaust noise valve? Does anyone know at what RPM these open on the GSW?

Cheers, Tom

Emissions 101 folks.

These bikes use a lambada sensor, it only reads rich or lean. They are very reliable and relatively inexpensive. Most cars use them because they get the job done. The computer always riches and leans the mixture slightly around the set point. The average is 14.7 to one. The lean excursion is when the power sags slightly. This is your surge. I have hooked a volt meter on the sensor output on the older oil heads, they surge in time with the sensor swings. Yours probably will also.

Intake valve deposits store some fuel, so they make the lean excursion last longer, and the process slower. So using some techtron may help. You might also have a lazy sensor, sometimes a new one is bad. The scan tools will see this, you can compare your O2 sensor output and speed between rich and lean with a non surging bike.

A bad plug or a weak coil will also cause this as will a injector with a poor spay pattern. There are other possible causes but I do not know enough about the wet heads to comment.

Hope this helps.

Rod

Hello Rod,

Thanks for the suggestions.

I doubt "intake deposits" are much of a factor on my bike. It has 4000 miles on it.

I'm aware that a narrowband O2 sensor is more of a "switch" than a wideband O2 sensor. However, every car and fuel injected motorcycle does not oscillate at steady throttle settings. People would find that unacceptable.

Thanks again, Tom

GeorgeKingGeorge said:

Cold start data log for stock sent via email


... [then later] AF-XIED units received.

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George's bike is an R1200GS LC (W) and he has offered to ride with the AF-XIEDs connected and logging data to his GS-911 Wifi.

It took me a while to get to analyzing the GS-911 information but I?ve gotten through it. The bottom line is that the AF-XIED is performing as it should. The key points:

1) The AF-XIED output is driving the BMSK correctly. The Lambda Sensor voltages are proper (200-800 mV).
2) The distribution of voltages measured by the BMSK is also correct?very nicely distributed between 200 and 800 mV.
3) The amount of time spent Closed Loop is high (newer model) and it is also correct.
4) There are no sensors that are displaying unexpected values.

There was only one real discovery, that is that the average Lambda Sensor Voltage while the bike was in Closed Loop operation was higher than I'm used to seeing--about 650 mV with the unit set on 8. (Can you compare the settings to the photo I sent?) This average voltage measured isn't a function of the AF-XIED. It is based on The amount of time that the BMSK is reporting voltages near 800 mV versus the amount of time at 200 mV. What it means is that the bias point is perhaps 0.5-1% higher than the setting selected, indicating that the mixture is slightly richer than target (0.1-0.2 AFR). Because everything else is operating as it should, the higher average voltage isn?t an issue at all, more a curiosity to me.

The GS-911 on the R1200GSW reports different types of realtime values compared to the R1200GS. I?m working with Hexcode to understand why some realtime values that I?m used to seeing are missing. For example, if it reported the Lambda Control Factors (short term trims) we?d have a little more insight. It does report two injection pulse lengths for the GSW, compared to a one (base time) for the GS. Looking at the two pulse times on the GSW data, it looks correct and the differences side-to-side are small and reasonable.

Next steps for you would be to ride for a couple tanks of gas on setting 8, then a couple on setting 9, then a couple of settings 7 and 6. I realize this isn?t the best time of the year for this type of riding so you can keep the beta units as long as you feel like trying them.

Although I see no reason why the GSW won't benefit, the real question is this: now that we know the AF-XIEDs are doing what they are supposed to do, how does the R1200GSW respond to the fuel that gets added. In the case of many BMW motorcycles, there is a significant improvement in smoothness, roll-on torque, etc. Setting 6, 7, or 8 usually transforms the feeling of the ride. We will need to hear from several riders of GSWs to gain that insight.

I assume this would be similar results for the 14/15 R1200RT LC? I live in Minnesota so the bike is hibernating, but looking forward to installing the AF-XIED in the spring if research all goes well.

ch2ous said:

On my 2013 K16GT I noticed that when I am modulating a constant speed, in any gear, where the throttle is barely cracked the engine seems to surge. In other words; For example, before entering a turn, I may roll off throttle, use engine compression & a little brake to reduce speed and then just crack the throttle to maintain speed until I apex and then roll out of the turn accelerating. It seems that the fly by wire system gets confused with a repetitive cycle of sending some fuel and then choking it off producing a sensation of acceleration followed by engine compression. It screws up my line in a curve and can be startling when modulating speed in slow traffic. I am either accelerating or decelerating but no in between.

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This was the biggest reason I got rid of my 2012 K1600 GTL, well, surging plus excessive driveline lash. It was nearly impossible to ride smoothly with light throttle.

I have no surging at all on my RT.

Surging on the wetheads is a real issue for many of us. I've had the BMW western engineering tech look at my bike after three dealers told me to 'live with it, it's a common problem.' 'They all do it.'

Well, I've owned 9 BMWs -- oil, hex, and wetheads. The problem was legendary back in the late 1990s and until the redesign in 2004. The problem is a lean burning fuel issue derived from emission control restrictions. On the older oil heads it was partially solved by switching to a dual spark plug.

To try and fix the issue I'm going to try installing a booster plug from Adventure Designs http://www.advdesigns.com/boplforbmwmo.html . Essentially, the booster plug fools the ECU into thinking that the ambient temp is a few degrees cooler than it really is, and the ECU then enriches the fuel mixture. I'll post the results.

It's total BS that BMW is still having this issue.

The last couple pages of this thread have some updates on the AF-XIED for BMWs on Wetheads. Feel free to ask if you have any questions.
RB

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26741298&postcount=1468

roger 04 rt said:

The last couple pages of this thread have some updates on the AF-XIED for BMWs on Wetheads. Feel free to ask if you have any questions.
RB

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26741298&postcount=1468

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I have been following that thread with interest. While the AF-XIED seems popular with the GS crowd, I haven't seen many comments from the RT crowd. Have you been getting any feedback with effectiveness on the 14/15 R1200RT? I did install the AF-XIED primarily because I was hearing a light ping at low speed with somewhat heavy throttle. I am not sure what that noise is but suspect it isn't engine knocking. The ping I am hearing is reduced but not gone. There are other threads on this sound.... I am no expert, but I seem to be experiencing similar results as to what the brochure says such as better throttle control at low speed, smoother acceleration from low speed and rides better in a higher gear. I am still adjusting from coming from a low RPM H-D but before traveling on a 30mph road to my home I had to stay in second where as now I can ride in third and cruise along. This is a road I don't want to speed on given the number of patrol cars I have seen on it! I am on my fourth tank of gas since the install and running on setting #7. This bike doesn't need much high RPM support but I do believe these bikes run lean due to EPA standards and if BMW had it's druthers would ship them with a different map if they could. I believe the AF-XIED helps with that. Any comments on all of that are welcome!

TomR1200 said:

Hello Rod,

Thanks for the suggestions.

I doubt "intake deposits" are much of a factor on my bike. It has 4000 miles on it.

I'm aware that a narrowband O2 sensor is more of a "switch" than a wideband O2 sensor. However, every car and fuel injected motorcycle does not oscillate at steady throttle settings. People would find that unacceptable.

Thanks again, Tom

Click to expand...

As a generalization that is right. Something is amiss with the state of tune.

3rd gear/45 mph = ?? rpms?

If you try to look on the HD website for horsepower figures you won't find any, but Motorcycle Consumer News has dyno-tested them and the 1700 cc HD twin makes 75 horsepower.

Contrast that to your 1200 cc BMW twin that makes 125 horsepower.

Think it might be a little more high strung? Not as much low-end torque?

Haven't ridden a Wethead yet, but I consider 4K rpm pretty much the minimum when running my Camhead, as below that there's little safety margin for acceleration.

Mehinks if you're trying to idle along in a current BMW, you're going to have problems. You could easily call it surging.