Dead R1100RS - Troubleshooting Tips?

gsaddict · May 13, 2014

bwanajames said:
Well, I'm happy to report that when I pulled off the valve covers, I didn't have a naked sprocket staring back at me. But I did expect to find some irregularities with the valve clearances. Strangely enough, they were in the ballpark.

Perhaps I've got a chunk of valve missing (as was suggested earlier) and that's the reason it's not sealing...

I had this happen a few years ago. Hard pass and heavy pinging. Suspect a chunk of carbon got stuck under the valve seat for a few revs.
That's all it takes.

The engine was an oil consumer (softly broken in by the owner before me) I re-ringed the engine at the time of the head rebuild and broke it in hard.
Consequently it now consumes very little oil and has no real carbon to speak of with a borescope inspection.
The rebuild was 85,000 miles ago

bikerfish1100 · May 13, 2014

bwanajames said:
It was my first Beemer, and riding it is better than sex....

If you really believe that, I would suggest that you're doing something wrong in that department.

fwiw- i always contended that riding my mid 90's Ducati 900SS

was the most fun anyone could have with their clothes on, but once the attire goes away.....

best of luck in getting your bike up and running again.

henzilla · May 13, 2014

Finally got H's 1150 w/108K right head broken down as well...look familiar? :doh

This was the loss of power/ cylinder shortly after fuel stop and probable water ingestion back around October (water in tank & filter). Valve clearances were fine. The compression tester guage dial kinda hinted at this.
Saving grace is no visible signs of it or damage from the bit.

Glad she has backups as I got my /6 back together recently before I got to hers :bolt

gsaddict · May 13, 2014

henzilla said:
Finally got H's 1150 w/108K right head broken down as well...look familiar?

View attachment 44943

This was the loss of power/ cylinder shortly after fuel stop and probable water ingestion back around October (water in tank & filter). Valve clearances were fine. The compression tester guage dial kinda hinted at this.
Saving grace is no visible signs of it or damage from the bit.

Glad she has backups as I got my /6 back together recently before I got to hers

A leakdown tester would have found that in a second. :deal

Funny, mine still ran (did not idle worth a darn) but it was less burned.

henzilla · May 13, 2014

GSAddict said:
Funny, mine still ran (did not idle worth a darn) but it was less burned.

oh, she made it run back home to swap bikes, it was quite the banzai run :whistle

...I couldn't get it too idle long enough to do much once home. Nothing to leakdown on that side

full blown opening for sure...at least not a holed piston!

bwanajames · May 14, 2014

A Preview of Coming Attractions?

GSAddict said:
bwanajames said:

Well, I'm happy to report that when I pulled off the valve covers, I didn't have a naked sprocket staring back at me. But I did expect to find some irregularities with the valve clearances. Strangely enough, they were in the ballpark.

Perhaps I've got a chunk of valve missing (as was suggested earlier) and that's the reason it's not sealing...

I had this happen a few years ago. Hard pass and heavy pinging. Suspect a chunk of carbon got stuck under the valve seat for a few revs.
That's all it takes.

The engine was an oil consumer (softly broken in by the owner before me) I re-ringed the engine at the time of the head rebuild and broke it in hard.
Consequently it now consumes very little oil and has no real carbon to speak of with a borescope inspection.
The rebuild was 85,000 miles ago

Click to expand...

Thanks for posting the rather gruesome valve pics - a preview of coming attractions I'm afraid. In the meantime, I'll try to get my hands on a leak-down tester and see what that reveals. Thanks for all the handy suggestions. You guys are alright...

69zeff65 · May 14, 2014

Back in the day

We used the hose off a compression test set up with a fitting and shut off to add some air pressure and see if it held and where it leaked out if it didn't hold. Considering your 0 reading for compression on that one side I would just take the gauge off your compression tester and install a male air fitting and run about 30-50psi into the cylinder with the valves fully closed and determine if the air is leaking out of a chunk-ed exhaust valve or into the crank case through a hole in the piston. A hand over the tail pipe and remove the oil fill cap will help you with this one a lot more than a gauge or a shut off valve in this case. It might be time to take the header pipe off that one side and have a look up in there to see what you can see.

I think the somewhat low reading on the right side may be caused by a washing of the cylinder by raw and unburned fuel being dumped in but it wouldn't hurt to do a leak down there also.

pglaves · May 14, 2014

I agree. On the worst side a specific percentage reading for leakdown is not needed. You need to know where the air is going. So just apply compressed air through a spark plug hole and listen/feel at the oil fill, exhaust, etc.

In any case you need to pull one head for sure. The real question is the other side. I'd pull it too but am not at all sure what you are likely to find.

gsaddict · May 14, 2014

If you are going to keep the bike, do both sides.
If it was an oil user, do the rings as well and break it properly.

dieselyoda · May 15, 2014

Whoa................

How did we go from a "no-start" to rebuilding the engine?

bwanajames · May 19, 2014

The Tale of the Tailpipe

69zeff65 said:
We used the hose off a compression test set up with a fitting and shut off to add some air pressure and see if it held and where it leaked out if it didn't hold. Considering your 0 reading for compression on that one side I would just take the gauge off your compression tester and install a male air fitting and run about 30-50psi into the cylinder with the valves fully closed and determine if the air is leaking out of a chunk-ed exhaust valve or into the crank case through a hole in the piston. A hand over the tail pipe and remove the oil fill cap will help you with this one a lot more than a gauge or a shut off valve in this case. It might be time to take the header pipe off that one side and have a look up in there to see what you can see.

I think the somewhat low reading on the right side may be caused by a washing of the cylinder by raw and unburned fuel being dumped in but it wouldn't hurt to do a leak down there also.

Sorry for the lack of feedback. I had to hunt down a compressor for the next phase of testing. The suggestion of using a compression tester hose for air delivery to the ailing cylinder was a good tip!

(First timers (like me) just remember to remove the schrader valve from the hose end).

So, valve covers back on, plug back in right side, left (bad) side at TDC for closed valves, and 40 psi into the left side spark plug hole revealed zero air coming from the oil filler port. But a pretty significant draft was coming through the tailpipe. It's beginning to sound like I may have an exhaust valve resembling one of the earlier posts...

69zeff65 · May 19, 2014

Not as bad as it could have been

It does appear as though you burned a chunk out of your exhaust valve on the left side, not nearly as bad as a slipped or broken timing chain but a little worse than a bad HES. As soon as you get the head off and confirm the diagnosis you should consider having both heads rebuilt as a pair and installing the upgraded timing chain tensioner on the left side or both sides if it is possible, I'm not that familiar with the machines so it might not be something that can be done. When the time comes to have the heads rebuilt this forum is an excellent resource to find the shop to do the work, I think pulling the heads is a pretty straight forward procedure but then again I'm not that familiar with the overhead cam stuff other than automobile engines. Pay careful attention and inspect the cylinder walls and piston on the left side to make sure there isn't any damage there, if no damage I wouldn't go any further than the heads but someone here may have better insight as to the cost VRS benefit to honing and re-ringing while your that far.

bwanajames · May 24, 2014

Seek and Ye Shall Find (But you may not like it...)

To start off, I'm going to include a snapshot of a PM that I didn't realize I had. Why? Because he nailed it!

AND NOW FOR THE UGLY TRUTH...

So, now the question is: Could you fine fellows recommend a good machine shop that specializes in BMW head work?

gsaddict · May 24, 2014

bwanajames said:
So, now the question is: Could you fine fellows recommend a good machine shop that specializes in BMW head work?

Only up here in B.C. Canada

http://mongoosemachine.com/

bwanajames · May 24, 2014

Carbon Build-up Prevention?

Below is a rather frightening picture of carbon build-up :eek

which was posted on the GS Giants Facebook page. Seeing this, it's no wonder we have carbon bits wedging in valve seats and chipping valves. My question is: What is the leading cause of carbon build-up, and can anything be done to prevent it?

Case in point: the GS Giant fellow suggested his carbon build-up was due to bad gas while going through Africa. But when I bought my RS, the previous owner made a point to mention that it was better to have the engine oil level a bit on the low side rather than the high side as a high oil level would "carbon up the piston..."

Is there any truth to that?

gsaddict · May 24, 2014

bwanajames said:
Below is a rather frightening picture of carbon build-up which was posted on the GS Giants Facebook page. Seeing this, it's no wonder we have carbon bits wedging in valve seats and chipping valves. My question is: What is the leading cause of carbon build-up, and can anything be done to prevent it?

Case in point: the GS Giant fellow suggested his carbon build-up was due to bad gas while going through Africa. But when I bought my RS, the previous owner made a point to mention that it was better to have the engine oil level a bit on the low side rather than the high side as a high oil level would "carbon up the piston..."

Is there any truth to that?

View attachment 45077

The worst ones are the oil consumers, Mine was like that until re-ringed and broken in properly. Have borescoped after 80,000 miles and very little carbon.

23217 · May 24, 2014

This is pretty much what most of us expected. Now, you have to make a decision of what you are going to replace

1. Just the broken exhaust valve?
2. All the valves?
3. Ring and valve job?

If you are only going to do a valve job, you could get the parts from a dealer and have an automotive machine shop clean the head and cut/seat the valves for you. This would get you up and running the fastest. Another option is to let your dealer do it. Or, ship it out to someone else who specializes on valve jobs on BMW's. I find that my local NAPA machine shop does far better work then the dealer. But, they do these kind of jobs all day long. It is a personal choice.

I would do both sides if it were my machine. I would also see if the left side had more carbon build up then the right side. If so, I would see if the carbon canister is still connected. This may have contributed to your problem. You would hate to put the machine back together and have it happen again. Or, maybe you are getting oil blowing past the rings? Or both.

This will give you an idea of the parts prices. The number before the dollar amt is the quantity. When you buy the exhaust valve, you have to buy all 4 exhaust valves.

1 11 34 1 340 747 INTAKE VALVE - D=36/6 (to 10/95) 0.11 4 $54.22ADD TO CART
01 11 34 1 342 016 INTAKE VALVE - D=34/5 (from 10/95) 0.09 4 $54.22ADD TO CART
02 11 34 1 340 701 EXHAUST VALVE - D=31/6 (to 10/95) 0.11 4 $146.60ADD TO CART
02 11 34 1 342 017 EXHAUST VALVE - D=29/5 (from 10/95) 0.07 4 $146.60ADD TO CART
03 11 34 1 340 919 SPRING POCKET 0.01 8 $3.90ADD TO CART
04 11 34 1 341 514 VALVE SPRING 0.07 8 $10.16ADD TO CART
05 11 34 1 340 918 UPPER SPRING PLATE - D=6 (to 10/95) 0.02 8 $3.90ADD TO CART
05 11 34 1 342 971 UPPER SPRING PLATE - D=5 (from 10/95) 8 $3.90ADD TO CART
06 11 34 1 461 405 VALVE COLLET - D=6 (to 10/95) X $1.74ADD TO CART
06 11 34 1 340 846 VALVE COLLET - D=5 (from 10/95) X $1.79ADD TO CART
07 11 34 1 461 679 VALVE SEAL RING (to 10/95) 8 $5.13ADD TO CART
07 11 34 1 340 849 VALVE SEAL RING - D=5 (from 10/95) 8 $5.13ADD TO CART
08 11 12 1 340 905 VALVE GUIDE INLET - D=12,55/D=6MM (to 10/95) 0.07 4 $9.72ADD TO CART
08 11 12 1 340 906 VALVE GUIDE EXHAUST - D=12,55/D=6MM (to 10/95) 0.07 4 $9.72ADD TO CART
08 11 12 1 341 600 VALVE GUIDE INLET - D=12,7/D=6MM (to 10/95) 0.07 4 $9.72ADD TO CART
08 11 12 1 340 838 VALVE GUIDE INLET - D=12,7/D=5MM (from 10/95) 0.07 4 $9.72ADD TO CART
08 11 12 1 340 843 VALVE GUIDE EXHAUST - D=12,7/D=5MM (from 10/95) 0.08 4 $9.72ADD TO CART
09 11 12 1 340 574 VALVE SEAT RING INTAKE (to 10/95) 0.04 4 $14.79ADD TO CART
09 11 12 1 342 450 VALVE SEAT RING INTAKE (from 10/95) 0.04 4 $14.79ADD TO CART
10 11 12 1 340 575 VALVE SEAT RING EXHAUST (to 10/95) 0.05 4 $41.51ADD TO CART
10 11 12 1 342 459 VALVE SEAT RING EXHAUST (from 10/95) 0.04 4 $41.51ADD TO CART
11 11 12 1 342 869 CYL. HEAD GASKET, 4 COMPONENTS (to 08/97) 0.22 2 $66.33ADD TO CART
11 11 12 1 341 194 CYL. HEAD GASKET, 3 COMPONENTS (from 08/97) 0.09 2 $48.25ADD TO CART

04 11 25 1 342 779 SET: REPAIR KIT PISTON RINGS - D=99 0.08 2 $86.63

The next issue you need to address is the cam chain tensioner. There is a 17mm(?) bolt near the base of the cylinder on the Throttle body side. Remove it. If there is a spring in there, you need to replace it before it ruins your motor. Very easy job. Even easier when the throttle body has been removed.

10 11 31 7 688 629 CYLINDER F CHAIN TENSIONER, LEFT 0.15 1 $28.93
15 11 31 7 656 922 PISTON LEFT 0.04 1 $57.70
12 07 11 9 963 308 GASKET RING - A18X22-CU 1 $0.87

You only replace the left side tensioner!

AntonLargiader · May 24, 2014

bwanajames said:
...So, now the question is: Could you fine fellows recommend a good machine shop that specializes in BMW head work?

There are plenty. I've done this repair a number of times but I am pretty certain there is someone a lot closer - maybe within driving distance - who can fix this for you. If you were here I would do it while you waited. You probably don't need seats or guides, just a new valve and a cleanup of the other valves and the seats. Unless the valves and guides are very worn, this is merely a tedious rather than complicated repair. It just takes some careful measuring and adherence to the spec.

You can ship the heads off, but if you don't want to mess with removing them then you really will have to find someone local. How's your local dealership?

m_stock10506 · May 24, 2014

PM Sent

Hey bwanajames - I sent you a PM - and this time I'm giving you a heads-up on the public thread...

bcusack · May 25, 2014

Here is a thread I posted last year when I had similar issues of a burned exhaust valve and also chased some gremlins at first.

http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?68744-1999-R1100RT-runs-bad-need-advice

For your own confidence, in the end I just replaced the one valve and had all valves and seats cut by a local machine shop for short money, $20 bucks a hole / $160 for all the machine work, guides and seals were fine. Now 6000 miles later all is well.

Billc

Dead R1100RS - Troubleshooting Tips?

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