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A Confrontation
- Thread starter bmwgsrider
- Start date
WEZUL
Cage Rattler
Exactly. I like to call it "defensive aggressive".
D
dude987
Guest
Glad your OK. +1 on Stabel air horn. It's a bit louder and will help get their attention.
Amarillo reminds me of Cal Farley's Boys Ranch. Went to school out there and had a great time.
Amarillo reminds me of Cal Farley's Boys Ranch. Went to school out there and had a great time.
Lots of good ideas on this thread. I don't believe ANYONE has suggested confrontation was a wise decision on the part of the OP. Learning from a "close call" - thinking how YOU contributed to it, no matter what the other motorist did, and how you can avoid that situation in the future is, I believe, the essence of a long riding life.
There seem to be two camps on the subject of loud horns and I haven't read the middle ground yet. I believe there are times when a honk of a "standard" horn might be appropriate as a warning. But I NEVER use my horn, and my bike has a loud one. Here's why:
1. I can't "multi-task." And if what I have read is true, neither can you. You may be quicker than I at switching tasks, but they happen sequentially - not two or more at the same time.
2. When a "situation" with another vehicle arises, I have three options: brake, accelerate, or swerve. Or some combination of the three. There is "deciding time," as well as "reaction time," and "execution time." But the brakes, throttle, and bars are under my complete control.
3. When do I sound the horn? Will the offending driver know where the sound is coming from? How will he respond if my horn scares him senseless? That is not under my control, and I prefer to not waste the "deciding, reaction,execution" time it takes to sound the horn.
I'm certainly interested in your differing oppinions.
I am very much in the camp of those of you who say "you must always be aware." I'm also in the camp of those who give and recognize small road courtesies. We give motorcycling a more positive image.
I do not subscribe to the "they are all out to kill you" mantra, not just because it is of course untrue, but because it doesn't work with the calm but very aware mindset that, for me, makes riding such a special thing.
There seem to be two camps on the subject of loud horns and I haven't read the middle ground yet. I believe there are times when a honk of a "standard" horn might be appropriate as a warning. But I NEVER use my horn, and my bike has a loud one. Here's why:
1. I can't "multi-task." And if what I have read is true, neither can you. You may be quicker than I at switching tasks, but they happen sequentially - not two or more at the same time.
2. When a "situation" with another vehicle arises, I have three options: brake, accelerate, or swerve. Or some combination of the three. There is "deciding time," as well as "reaction time," and "execution time." But the brakes, throttle, and bars are under my complete control.
3. When do I sound the horn? Will the offending driver know where the sound is coming from? How will he respond if my horn scares him senseless? That is not under my control, and I prefer to not waste the "deciding, reaction,execution" time it takes to sound the horn.
I'm certainly interested in your differing oppinions.
I am very much in the camp of those of you who say "you must always be aware." I'm also in the camp of those who give and recognize small road courtesies. We give motorcycling a more positive image.
I do not subscribe to the "they are all out to kill you" mantra, not just because it is of course untrue, but because it doesn't work with the calm but very aware mindset that, for me, makes riding such a special thing.
The act of confrontation is a type of blame game that is irrelevant and says more about the rider than the unobservant cager.
I suspect that essentially all of us who have many years and miles on bikes passed through the youthful stage of getting our blood pressure out of whack far too often based on perceived acts against our safety committed by others- BUT after enough years have gotten to the point where such events are both very rare and not upsetting, at least not for more than a few seconds. I think it took me about 3000 miles and the better part of a year after getting my first bike to figure out that all those 80 year old church ladies who "cut me off" were really not homicidal lunatics and that I was the one who needed to control the situation. And I'm still working on the optimizing the last part.
The only thing you can completely control on a bike is yourself and your choices so the first reaction from any close call would more productively be to examine what got you into the mess in the first place and what might have been done to avoid it.
There are almost no cases in which the rider could not have done something to reduce the risk and *maybe* eliminate the event entirely or at least reduce its potential emotional or physical impact. I saw absolutely nothing in the OP's thread about self-reflection re prevention.
Some obvious things to think about.
1) Manner of passing on the right and situation chosen to do so, What re visibility, speed, timing, the choice, might have been made better?
2) Reaction speed and riding skill. Is it really adequate or is it borderline enough that the evasion was itself unnerving. If the evasion itself created the negative emotional state, its time to work on riding skills more seriously.
3) Why exactly did this event make the rider believe a confrontation was appropriate? Was it really a right choice or simply a (second?) mistake.
This week a relatively new rider (about 2 years) in our club got into her first tail end collision, hitting a vehicle that pulled out from the left in front of her at a modest speed differential. She was not injured beyond being shaken up and is already talking about getting back on that bike or another. (The bike is repairable though I'm guessing the ins co will total it eventually based on its value.) In discussing this accident with her, she was convinced there was nothing more she could have done to prevent it (and that might be right, of course) but there was also no displayed awareness of whether better vision skills re ID of hazards or better riding skills (evasion and brakes) might have prevented the event. I've observed her riding enough to know she is still developing cornering skills and from that infer that vision, evasion and braking skills probably all still have room for improvement (before. like all of us, she eventually reaches her personal skills limit).
FWIW, I am no fan of horns. If you have time to use it, you also have time to do something re your position, speed, etc that is more likely to yield a predictable and safe result. If mine disappeared from my bike, I probably wouldn't notice it until the next annual inspection....I am a big fan of anything that improves conspicuity, from lights to riding gear or whatever..
I suspect that essentially all of us who have many years and miles on bikes passed through the youthful stage of getting our blood pressure out of whack far too often based on perceived acts against our safety committed by others- BUT after enough years have gotten to the point where such events are both very rare and not upsetting, at least not for more than a few seconds. I think it took me about 3000 miles and the better part of a year after getting my first bike to figure out that all those 80 year old church ladies who "cut me off" were really not homicidal lunatics and that I was the one who needed to control the situation. And I'm still working on the optimizing the last part.
The only thing you can completely control on a bike is yourself and your choices so the first reaction from any close call would more productively be to examine what got you into the mess in the first place and what might have been done to avoid it.
There are almost no cases in which the rider could not have done something to reduce the risk and *maybe* eliminate the event entirely or at least reduce its potential emotional or physical impact. I saw absolutely nothing in the OP's thread about self-reflection re prevention.
Some obvious things to think about.
1) Manner of passing on the right and situation chosen to do so, What re visibility, speed, timing, the choice, might have been made better?
2) Reaction speed and riding skill. Is it really adequate or is it borderline enough that the evasion was itself unnerving. If the evasion itself created the negative emotional state, its time to work on riding skills more seriously.
3) Why exactly did this event make the rider believe a confrontation was appropriate? Was it really a right choice or simply a (second?) mistake.
This week a relatively new rider (about 2 years) in our club got into her first tail end collision, hitting a vehicle that pulled out from the left in front of her at a modest speed differential. She was not injured beyond being shaken up and is already talking about getting back on that bike or another. (The bike is repairable though I'm guessing the ins co will total it eventually based on its value.) In discussing this accident with her, she was convinced there was nothing more she could have done to prevent it (and that might be right, of course) but there was also no displayed awareness of whether better vision skills re ID of hazards or better riding skills (evasion and brakes) might have prevented the event. I've observed her riding enough to know she is still developing cornering skills and from that infer that vision, evasion and braking skills probably all still have room for improvement (before. like all of us, she eventually reaches her personal skills limit).
FWIW, I am no fan of horns. If you have time to use it, you also have time to do something re your position, speed, etc that is more likely to yield a predictable and safe result. If mine disappeared from my bike, I probably wouldn't notice it until the next annual inspection....I am a big fan of anything that improves conspicuity, from lights to riding gear or whatever..
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ANDYVH
New member
To the point about loud horns, I agree that using the horn seems to detract from the bigger task at hand of doing everything else I should be doing to insure my safety. Another response said it something like using the horn is already too late. At that point, you're already in the situation and a loud horn, and certainly loud pipes, may not resolve the outcome.
In my years of riding since realizing I AM THE MOST RESPONSIBLE for everything that happens to me, I rarely if ever need to use my horn. In fact, I'd say its probably the least used control on my bike. The MOST used control is the one between my ears.
In my years of riding since realizing I AM THE MOST RESPONSIBLE for everything that happens to me, I rarely if ever need to use my horn. In fact, I'd say its probably the least used control on my bike. The MOST used control is the one between my ears.
F
From MARS
Guest
By the time I remembered where the horn switch is, it'd be too late for me to use it!
Trains have the loudest horns I've ever heard. If loud horns really prevented accidents, there would never be any train wrecks.
Tom
Trains have the loudest horns I've ever heard. If loud horns really prevented accidents, there would never be any train wrecks.
Tom
rob nye
Ritalin Poster Boy
Being able to operate all the controls at the appropriate time is one of the basic skills of riding a motorcycle.
If using any of the controls is a "distraction" from riding the bike I submit that you are not qualified to ride in the first place.
The horn is just as key as the throttle, brakes, clutch and kill switch to name a few other controls.
To be ready to use the horn in a situation where it may save you, you need to practice. To say the horn will never save you or if you're using the horn "it's already too late." is IMO pretty silly.
A good horn is another item in your safety tool set. Learn how to use it.
If using any of the controls is a "distraction" from riding the bike I submit that you are not qualified to ride in the first place.
The horn is just as key as the throttle, brakes, clutch and kill switch to name a few other controls.
To be ready to use the horn in a situation where it may save you, you need to practice. To say the horn will never save you or if you're using the horn "it's already too late." is IMO pretty silly.
A good horn is another item in your safety tool set. Learn how to use it.
F
From MARS
Guest
If you are as proficient in blowing the horn as you are in say, using the turn signals, then I'm glad I don't live where you do 'cause it must be hell.
When we are talking about a situation where time is alloted in fractions of a second, I'm not going to allocate the 1/2 second it may take me to make an uncommon motion that does nothing to change my speed or trajectory. To do so, IMO, is (to use your word) silly. But, you ride your way, and I'll ride mine, okay?
Tom
+1
Back in the 70's I stopped using my car horn after honking at others three times within one year. Each time, the driver got of his car and wanted to punch my lights out. I was in the right in each case, but so what; they were all bigger and angrier than me.
I have been the driver of large electric utility aerial lift trucks that had folks pulling out in front of us regularly. I never honked at situations because it happened daily, but some of my "co-pilots" would reach over and either hit the horn or across my head and pull the chain on the airhorn.
I had some very large Sasquatchs' come back to my door not pleased and wanting me to step out...I usually pointed at my boneheaded apprentice saying "he's yours!"
They usually left the horns alone after that
On the bikes...I just honk at the cows in the middle of the road...ooops, wrong thread
To be clear about the point I intended- by the time someone else reacts to your horn, if they do so at all and do it in a sane manner, you could have already completed an action of your own to alleviate the situation. Yes I can work all the controls at once but so what? I can't eliminate the other guys reaction time which is going to be long enough for me to waste 100 ft of travel distance or more that could have been used productively. I just do what I need to do -right now- and skip the noise and wasted time/distance,
I've never found it necessary or useful to employ a horn with any frequency though if it would have helped to get competitiors out of the way on track I'd probably have worn one out...About the only use mine ever get is waking up folks sleeping at a light (actually they're usually illegally texting) after a reasonable interval. No wasted distance in that circumstance,,
Years ago I used to teach a course called Decisive Driving. It was classroom and track avoidance simulations for folks most of whom had been in several accidents, We taught several key points to students which included rapid decisions, firm and immediate use of controls, and "never give up" (until the vehicle comes to a dead stop you have at least some way(s) to influence where it is going to go and what it might hit so pick the soft stuff if you have to choose.) We did not waste time teaching use of the horn to save your butt. I think many of you would be surprised by the number of folks who literally (unil trained otherwise) take their hands off the the wheel in an emergency and never once did I have a student show up who used brakes with any degree of suitability until after several hours of practice. Those students are the folks you're trying to "get straight" with some noise....
Having commuted into Boston on a bike for a few years I think I understand where robnye is coming from but I got away with my "no horn use" bit there, too. Here in NC, only the transplants from NY or NJ use horns.
I've never found it necessary or useful to employ a horn with any frequency though if it would have helped to get competitiors out of the way on track I'd probably have worn one out...About the only use mine ever get is waking up folks sleeping at a light (actually they're usually illegally texting) after a reasonable interval. No wasted distance in that circumstance,,
Years ago I used to teach a course called Decisive Driving. It was classroom and track avoidance simulations for folks most of whom had been in several accidents, We taught several key points to students which included rapid decisions, firm and immediate use of controls, and "never give up" (until the vehicle comes to a dead stop you have at least some way(s) to influence where it is going to go and what it might hit so pick the soft stuff if you have to choose.) We did not waste time teaching use of the horn to save your butt. I think many of you would be surprised by the number of folks who literally (unil trained otherwise) take their hands off the the wheel in an emergency and never once did I have a student show up who used brakes with any degree of suitability until after several hours of practice. Those students are the folks you're trying to "get straight" with some noise....
Having commuted into Boston on a bike for a few years I think I understand where robnye is coming from but I got away with my "no horn use" bit there, too. Here in NC, only the transplants from NY or NJ use horns.
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ANDYVH
New member
Been riding for 40 years, approaching 300,000 miles of riding (over 200,000 on BMW's), been teaching MSF classes for 20 years, and I still have little use for my horn. I simply don't consider it a primary control and I do feel that by the time you are in a situation where the horn is the desired control, you are too close to make a real difference. Just my opinion, but I rarely have anything even close to a "close call", for an average of 10,000 miles per year.
Seems a lot of very experienced riders echo my sentiment (as a not so experienced rider) that the horn is only useful in 1. possibly encouraging cattle to move off the road, and 2. waking up a driver when the light has turned green for a couple seconds.
So, come on you loud horn guys. Let us know when you use it and the response you get. We are all willing to learn.
So, come on you loud horn guys. Let us know when you use it and the response you get. We are all willing to learn.
I can remember only using my bike's horn once. It was in a heavy rain, 8:00 a.m., morning rush hour riding through St. Louis. The cage beside me heard the bike's horn and stopped moving into my space. Good thing as there was no place for me to go except being squished between his car and the car to my left. The surprising part was he actually heard the stock horn on my old K.
For the most part I have been rather good at anticipating dangerous situations before they occur and therefore take preventative action, whether that be changing lanes, falling back or quickly completing a pass. Hope my eyes and brain continue to work as a team leaving the horn out of the equation.
