dougjordan
New member
Some is magnetic some not..R80 with 10,000 miles on it. Would this be normal, the bike is still breaking in.
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Metal in the Oil Filter
- Thread starter dougjordan
- Start date
Some is magnetic some not..R80 with 10,000 miles on it. Would this be normal, the bike is still breaking in.
dennisdarrow
#4869 Earned Lifetime mem
yes for sure.........Do like Kurt says.................RIDE IT TO 12k AND THEN...............after you RIDE IT.....see what the filter is like.......
dougjordan
New member
Dumped the oil,but were shiny flakes in bottom of pan. Yes 10,000 original miles,got the bike 5 years ago with 600 miles.Sat in his basement for 22 years. A r80 gs they are out there. Maybe I should pop the front off and inspect?
dougjordan
New member
Valves are good. Will start by dropping the pan and covers to see what I can see.
jhall
BMWMOA #24809
Devil Is In The Details
Would need an lab oil analysis to determine what the particles are, which may / may not be cause for alarm. I have rebuilt about 25 motors, mostly V8 auto, but the issue is same. It is not uncommon for particles to appear in the filter, especially the first few oil changes. The is why many rebuilders suggest an initial oil change in only a few hundred miles. The particles are usually from parts 'scrubbing in', i.e. rod, main and cam bearings. If you were to totally disassemble your motor now, you'd see there are microscopic surface imperfections in those areas. If mine, I'd finish the current oil filter change, then monitor in the future, which is a good idea anyway.
Would need an lab oil analysis to determine what the particles are, which may / may not be cause for alarm. I have rebuilt about 25 motors, mostly V8 auto, but the issue is same. It is not uncommon for particles to appear in the filter, especially the first few oil changes. The is why many rebuilders suggest an initial oil change in only a few hundred miles. The particles are usually from parts 'scrubbing in', i.e. rod, main and cam bearings. If you were to totally disassemble your motor now, you'd see there are microscopic surface imperfections in those areas. If mine, I'd finish the current oil filter change, then monitor in the future, which is a good idea anyway.
stevenrankin
Active member
Video
Not too long ago, there was a video on the web from one of the motorcycle bloggers where they had people send in their oil and I believe filters from their bikes first oil changes, or the break in changes. The article was from the UK and covered all known brands of bikes here in the US as well as some lesser known brands.
The results were pretty amazing in how much "junk" was found in the oil on some of the cheaper brands of bikes and to a lesser degree the better built bikes.
Reasons given for some of the stuff in the break in oil were contamination of the assembly line to parts wear in.
Before I would begin tearing things apart in a panic, I would do another oil change in the 2K range and see what you find. Of course, if a noise or something weird starts happening before that 2K, the bets are off and then I would do a tear down.
If you had 100K or more miles on the bike, I would worry a bit, even. then, there still may not be reason to worry to a tear down point. My RT went over 100K before the nikasail cylinders needed rebuilt then anther 100K, I have replaced two timing chains and both times I needed them, It was pretty obvious they needed to be done.
At 240K miles plus, I am still running the original crank. cam, lifters, and push rods. Until they start making a lot of racket or show major metal in the filters or oil, they are not going to come out of the engine.
A long note and my opinion, a few flakes just wouldn't bother me. Good luck, St.
Not too long ago, there was a video on the web from one of the motorcycle bloggers where they had people send in their oil and I believe filters from their bikes first oil changes, or the break in changes. The article was from the UK and covered all known brands of bikes here in the US as well as some lesser known brands.
The results were pretty amazing in how much "junk" was found in the oil on some of the cheaper brands of bikes and to a lesser degree the better built bikes.
Reasons given for some of the stuff in the break in oil were contamination of the assembly line to parts wear in.
Before I would begin tearing things apart in a panic, I would do another oil change in the 2K range and see what you find. Of course, if a noise or something weird starts happening before that 2K, the bets are off and then I would do a tear down.
If you had 100K or more miles on the bike, I would worry a bit, even. then, there still may not be reason to worry to a tear down point. My RT went over 100K before the nikasail cylinders needed rebuilt then anther 100K, I have replaced two timing chains and both times I needed them, It was pretty obvious they needed to be done.
At 240K miles plus, I am still running the original crank. cam, lifters, and push rods. Until they start making a lot of racket or show major metal in the filters or oil, they are not going to come out of the engine.
A long note and my opinion, a few flakes just wouldn't bother me. Good luck, St.
dougjordan
New member
I kind feel go another 2k then check also. My 78 with well over 100k showed metal in filter none magnetic first change then nothing , after rod bearings. How would the timing chain get sloppy in 10k ? The steel particles have me a little worried.
stevenrankin
Active member
Timing chain
The only thing I would guess to think would happen to the timing chain in 10K miles might be some kind of kink or damage from sitting for 22 years but, that is a real stretch of my imagination. I would think a kink in the chain would have made itself known right upon starting the bike after sitting and in the first few miles of riding.
Personally, I don't think timing chains stretch but the links wear out and get sloppy and loose over time. The gear teeth wear out and to be honest I can't see that happening in 10K.
Luckily, the oil pan is not extremely difficult to remove if need be and if you would feel better to check it's bottom for more metal. Just be careful if you do remove it not to over tighten the bolts.
Again, I wouldn't worry unless I were to see a whole lot more metal in the filter or heard/felt some kind of noise or felt something strange. I have seen heavily abused airheads run for a long time under far worse conditions than you are riding in and they keep going with surprisingly little engine wear. Of course, there are always exceptions to things, maybe you did get a bad lifter or cam at the factory. Again, knowing BMW, I feel that is a stretch as well. Not that it doesn't happen but, I don't recall any major problems in that period except the receding valves and I don't recall anyone having that happen in such a low mileage bike.
As it is, it is raining so I am boring everyone on the forum again, Good luck, St.
The only thing I would guess to think would happen to the timing chain in 10K miles might be some kind of kink or damage from sitting for 22 years but, that is a real stretch of my imagination. I would think a kink in the chain would have made itself known right upon starting the bike after sitting and in the first few miles of riding.
Personally, I don't think timing chains stretch but the links wear out and get sloppy and loose over time. The gear teeth wear out and to be honest I can't see that happening in 10K.
Luckily, the oil pan is not extremely difficult to remove if need be and if you would feel better to check it's bottom for more metal. Just be careful if you do remove it not to over tighten the bolts.
Again, I wouldn't worry unless I were to see a whole lot more metal in the filter or heard/felt some kind of noise or felt something strange. I have seen heavily abused airheads run for a long time under far worse conditions than you are riding in and they keep going with surprisingly little engine wear. Of course, there are always exceptions to things, maybe you did get a bad lifter or cam at the factory. Again, knowing BMW, I feel that is a stretch as well. Not that it doesn't happen but, I don't recall any major problems in that period except the receding valves and I don't recall anyone having that happen in such a low mileage bike.
As it is, it is raining so I am boring everyone on the forum again, Good luck, St.
Here is a YouTube video that looks at oil from various manufacturers' new bikes. The results were interesting -
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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9GAUo8eUXeU" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
slowpokepete
Member
Snarky comment Alert;
A magnet works on everything from a single cylinder to a V what ever. Except for Aluminum shavings. Those show up in the filter. So check your magnet and your filter at least once a day after checking your tire pressure and final drive level.
I'm sorry I can't help myself.
Professionals have tried.
pglaves
#13338
Snarky comment Alert;
A magnet works on everything from a single cylinder to a V what ever. Except for Aluminum shavings. Those show up in the filter. So check your magnet and your filter at least once a day after checking your tire pressure and final drive level.
I'm sorry I can't help myself.
Professionals have tried.
True, but every day is overkill. Once a week is sufficient unless you hear clanking noises.
As an aside, if your bike is turning 6,000 rpm that is 100 revolutions per second. That is like a blender if foreign matter (like the head of a valve or somesuch) should happen to drop in. The carnage might be spectacular and you probably won't hear much of anything before the engine locks up. The noise would only last maybe a tenth of a second.
Last edited:
stevenrankin
Active member
Oil flow
Ah there is lubricating oil pumped to the timing chain as well as other areas to lubricate things. like the valves rocker arms and such. The timing chain IS in the flow and so metal from it COULD get into the filter, if in fact it was coming apart or worn out.
I seriously doubt there is a major problem here, a few flakes wether steel or aluminum are in my mind nothing to get excited about. IF I pulled the filter and it was coated in metal flakes, I WOULD be very concerned. I have a magnetic plug on my oil pan and to be honest there is occasionally a bit of metal flake on it from time to time. Examination of my engine's main components this winter's major overhaul showed no major wear on the crank, or cam and as I have said, this is after 240K pause miles of treating it like a sport bike. The timing chain has been changed twice in that period but to be honest, I NEVER found excessive metal in the filter or pan during the period the chains were worn out. I did however notice the timing marks with a light getting a bit fuzzy, and a bit of rattling noise from time to time.
To be honest, I changed the timing chains because the mileage and use of the bike pointed toward it being a good thing to do as part of an overhaul. I can't complain, I got about 100K on each chain.
The tally for the rest of the bike's parts is my first major change to valves was at 35K, and that was due to the BMW valve recession problem. At 120K, I had to replace the nikasil cylinders and pistons. Due to the cost and availability of nikasil components, I had the cylinders bored out and sleeved with cast iron liners, bumped up the compression from 8.5 1 to 9.5 1. That combination has lasted now to the 240K mark, the rings are good, the cylinders are good, compression was good, so no rebuild just reassembly.
The crank, bearings, lifters are all stock, and in very good condition, hence no change out at this overhaul.
Surprisingly, during the first 120K miles when the piston rings went bad and the pistons started slapping the inside of the jugs, there was very little or almost no metal in the filter and removal of the oil pan showed very little as well.
OkAY, as I said, it is raining, I am bored, and this is a long post. This has been my experience with my bike. I also have friends with very high mileage bikes and they all pretty much have similar experiences with metal in filters. I guess I am lucky, or my routine maintenance pays off. I have only seen a couple of bikes come into my friend's shop with major metal particles in the oil filters and those bikes were heavily abused and neglected by previous owners then sold to a new guy. St.
Ah there is lubricating oil pumped to the timing chain as well as other areas to lubricate things. like the valves rocker arms and such. The timing chain IS in the flow and so metal from it COULD get into the filter, if in fact it was coming apart or worn out.
I seriously doubt there is a major problem here, a few flakes wether steel or aluminum are in my mind nothing to get excited about. IF I pulled the filter and it was coated in metal flakes, I WOULD be very concerned. I have a magnetic plug on my oil pan and to be honest there is occasionally a bit of metal flake on it from time to time. Examination of my engine's main components this winter's major overhaul showed no major wear on the crank, or cam and as I have said, this is after 240K pause miles of treating it like a sport bike. The timing chain has been changed twice in that period but to be honest, I NEVER found excessive metal in the filter or pan during the period the chains were worn out. I did however notice the timing marks with a light getting a bit fuzzy, and a bit of rattling noise from time to time.
To be honest, I changed the timing chains because the mileage and use of the bike pointed toward it being a good thing to do as part of an overhaul. I can't complain, I got about 100K on each chain.
The tally for the rest of the bike's parts is my first major change to valves was at 35K, and that was due to the BMW valve recession problem. At 120K, I had to replace the nikasil cylinders and pistons. Due to the cost and availability of nikasil components, I had the cylinders bored out and sleeved with cast iron liners, bumped up the compression from 8.5 1 to 9.5 1. That combination has lasted now to the 240K mark, the rings are good, the cylinders are good, compression was good, so no rebuild just reassembly.
The crank, bearings, lifters are all stock, and in very good condition, hence no change out at this overhaul.
Surprisingly, during the first 120K miles when the piston rings went bad and the pistons started slapping the inside of the jugs, there was very little or almost no metal in the filter and removal of the oil pan showed very little as well.
OkAY, as I said, it is raining, I am bored, and this is a long post. This has been my experience with my bike. I also have friends with very high mileage bikes and they all pretty much have similar experiences with metal in filters. I guess I am lucky, or my routine maintenance pays off. I have only seen a couple of bikes come into my friend's shop with major metal particles in the oil filters and those bikes were heavily abused and neglected by previous owners then sold to a new guy. St.
stevenrankin
Active member
Noise
Paul, I agree 100% with your comment about the engine locking up in a split second, and not giving a lot of warning. I agree it can happen and does but how often on airheads? My uncle was a flight engineer on B-29 based out of Tinian in WW2 and he told me some hair raising stories regarding the B 29' habit of eating valves while on missions. The engine would have a common valve failure, the valve would break go into the combustion chamber and cause all kinds of havoc. He once had an engine loose two complete cylinders and pistons, blown off by the damage. Surprisingly, there was little or no warning of impending valve failure. Oil pressure, head temperatures could all look great, then suddenly drop or change and bang, engine failure.
Now with the B 29, it was common knowledge and a known fact the design of the engine and such was faulty and Boeing made tremendous effort to fix the problem. I don't think BMW ever has had a similar problem, causing such catastrophic damage to an engine so quickly. You have a whole lot more miles accrued on airhead BMW bikes then I most likely ever will so I could guess perhaps you have had a sudden catastrophe with an engine. I know one other person who had 500K plus miles on his R90S that has an engine suck a valve and he took the valves out, and rode home on one cylinder from VA to NY.
LOL, we should be sitting around a table enjoying each other company with a beverage of choice rather than clacking away at a keyboard. Just think, how much clearer communication is when face to face. Have a great day, St.
Paul, I agree 100% with your comment about the engine locking up in a split second, and not giving a lot of warning. I agree it can happen and does but how often on airheads? My uncle was a flight engineer on B-29 based out of Tinian in WW2 and he told me some hair raising stories regarding the B 29' habit of eating valves while on missions. The engine would have a common valve failure, the valve would break go into the combustion chamber and cause all kinds of havoc. He once had an engine loose two complete cylinders and pistons, blown off by the damage. Surprisingly, there was little or no warning of impending valve failure. Oil pressure, head temperatures could all look great, then suddenly drop or change and bang, engine failure.
Now with the B 29, it was common knowledge and a known fact the design of the engine and such was faulty and Boeing made tremendous effort to fix the problem. I don't think BMW ever has had a similar problem, causing such catastrophic damage to an engine so quickly. You have a whole lot more miles accrued on airhead BMW bikes then I most likely ever will so I could guess perhaps you have had a sudden catastrophe with an engine. I know one other person who had 500K plus miles on his R90S that has an engine suck a valve and he took the valves out, and rode home on one cylinder from VA to NY.
LOL, we should be sitting around a table enjoying each other company with a beverage of choice rather than clacking away at a keyboard. Just think, how much clearer communication is when face to face. Have a great day, St.
