Spline lube 2002 1150RT

[Olsensan]

These are the parts and numbers ordered for the 02 1150RT from Max BMW. For your reference anyone doing this job will at least need these parts with the exception of the clutch slave shaft.

* Recommended parts

Part Number Description

23211230440 FELT RING (for clutch slave rod) (1)*

21527659113 ROD - L=270MM (clutch slave rod) (1)

13641437474 O-RING - 7,52X3,51 (o-rings fuel injectors) (4)*

23417650149 BUSH (foam bushing for shift lever/linkage) (2)*

13541341797 O-RING - 52X2 (o-rings for throttle bodies) (2)*

21522335061 OUTPUT CYL (Slave cylinder) (1)


Here are a few questions:
1) Given the bike is 10 years old, seals start to fail etc, how do you guys feel
about replacing the input/output shaft seals?

2) Is there a way to check the clutch plate thickness to record wear?

3) When I pulled the FD there was oil in and around the rear boot, which
seals are associated with that for replacing?

 

[rxcrider]

Q1) Given the bike is 10 years old, seals start to fail etc, how do you guys feel
about replacing the input/output shaft seals?

A1 - will you mind pulling it apart again if it starts to leak sometime soon. It may be fine for a long time to come, or you could be pulling it apart mid-summer. I left mine alone as they weren't leaking and looked fine, but I realize full well that I may end up diving in again sooner than planned because of that gamble. I also have an input shaft that is worn though, so I'll be in there fairly frequently anyway.

Q2) Is there a way to check the clutch plate thickness to record wear?

A2 - Yes, do you have a service manual? The spec would be listed in there. I'm not sure if the spec is the same for yours as it is for my older bike, otherwise I could just tell you. The part numbers are different.

Q3) When I pulled the FD there was oil in and around the rear boot, which
seals are associated with that for replacing?[/QUOTE]

A3 - either the FD input seal or the output seal for the gearbox. If it is the gearbox seal, there should be a fluid trail through the swing arm where the oil rained back to the boot. I think FD input seal failures are more common. If it is a minor leak at the final drive, I might be tempted to leave it alone and change the fluid.

If memory serves, there have been a few accounts in which a leak occured while running synthetic gear lube and switching to Castrol Hypoy-C (or other non-synthetic) cured the minor leak at the FD input seal. I had a tiny puddle in the folds of the boot and had been running Mobil1 for a few thousand miles. I switched to Castrol w/ guard dog moly and at least after the first 500 miles when I checked, the boot was staying dry inside. I don't know if it fixed anything or not, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Let us know how much oil you found, as that may influence the advice you get.

 

[Olsensan]

Last time I did the pinion bushings there was maybe 1/4 oz of fluid in the boot area, no big deal but indicates seal problems. Is there a spec sheet specifying time periods for changing all these seals out? I could button this up and 2 weeks later find a pool of goo under the bike because a seal was old.

As far as the fluid found in the slave cylinder (clutch), a light coating of oil around the entire cylinder and maybe 1-2 drops would drip if I tilted the rear of the bike down.

Here is what I have for the clutch plate:

Wear limit mm (in) 4.8 (0.1890)
(Measured with caliper tips pressed by hand
against rivets of clutch plate)

After looking at the clutch I have to wonder how to get in there, or do I need to remove it to check the thickness. I'll look at the Clymers manual

 

[awagnon]

Greg, it's pretty uncommon for the clutch to wear out on that bike. If the splines are OK, I'd try to measure the plate thickness, but I'd be surprised if it needed replacement.

A small amount of oil in the FD boot is practically "normal". I'd just watch it and occasionally check the oil level in the FD. Many people have reported this and just ignored it or switched to non-synthetic gear oil.

I'd leave the input / output transmission shaft seals alone unless you have reason to think they're leaking. Just my opinion.

Why are you replacing the clutch throw-out rod, or did I read it wrong? I would drill a tiny hole in the floor of the slave cylinder cavity on the rear of the transmission. 3/32" or smaller. It's reasonable to prophylactically replace the slave cylinder unless, like me, you look at it every winter.

 

[rxcrider]

Wear limit mm (in) 4.8 (0.1890)
(Measured with caliper tips pressed by hand
against rivets of clutch plate)

After looking at the clutch I have to wonder how to get in there, or do I need to remove it to check the thickness. I'll look at the Clymers manual

You will need to remove the clutch disk to check it by the book. You are supposed to measure the thickness where the rivets secure the lining, not actually make contact with the rivets. If the rivets are flush with the wear surface of the lining, so that you can touch them with the calipers, measuring is a mute point; it is already worn out.

That said, unless you are going to replace the crank seal, I'd leave the clutch intact and measure the outer edge of the disk where it is sandwiched between the pressure plate and clutch cover. If it is near the minimum, I might be tempted to pull it apart and confirm. If it looks pretty good, I'd leave it intact. I'd probably use something around 5.20 mm (0.205 in) as my decision point.


One more item: In case you didn't read it in some of Paul's posts regarding lubing the splines, don't lube the female splines in the clutch disk hub. If you do, any excess will be pushed out the front of the hub where it can be flung onto the lining and pressure plate, leading to slippage.

 

[Olsensan]

Several people ask me for before and after pictures of the splines immediately after engine separation, that is uncleaned than cleaned. The former are posted above, these are after cleaning.

 

[Olsensan]

And the clutch hub. These are after only 27,000 miles and 10 years.

 

[Olsensan]

Did any of you guys use lubricant on the fuel injector and throttle body o-rings during re-assembly? If so what brand/type/where to get. Thanks again --Greg O

 

[JimMoore]

I used a little motor oil, I think. It wasn't a big deal. Splines look great, btw. Congrats.

 

[nrpetersen]

Note how little wear debris is present even on the plated bolt heads in the first PIX. Other pictures posted of worn splines show a lot of grey-black stuff in this area from fretting corrosion. The bolt heads are a light colored spot near the spline that could be used by others for wear evaluation.

This small amount of wear is a good indicator of a good spline system with indefinite life vs one that's not wearing.

Non-wearing splines would respond well to an inspection thru the starter port & a careful hypodermic injection grease job. A little grease may migrate out the clutch disk end of the spline, but the clutch disk can probably tolerate a very small amount of grease.

Maybe the area should be sprayed on a first inspection with white paint for a better criteria? I wish I had done so on my R1100RT. It was pristine in this area.

THX for the pictures Olsensan!

 

[Olsensan]

Hi there Nrpetersen, I have a question, what did this mean? Which area/spot are you referring to?

Maybe the area should be sprayed on a first inspection with white paint for a better criteria?


Also, Hey Al--Awagnon, you asked why I was replacing the clutch shaft? When removing the trans. it kind of cocked while backing out and I noticed some marks on the rod that were a consequence. For $45 I feel better better throwing in a know perfectly straight one rather than take any risk. I really don't want to do this again anytime soon. In short--insurance.

 

[nrpetersen]

Hi there Nrpetersen, I have a question, what did this mean? Which area/spot are you referring to?

Maybe the area should be sprayed on a first inspection with white paint for a better criteria?

Rather than looking at those plated bolt heads, I was thinking that the front side of the transmission housing be sprayed a thin coat of white enamel around but outboard of the input shaft/bearing/seal to provide a better viewing area reference for the next dis assembly. I would not want to get paint anywhere else though....

Maybe just another dumb idea of mine!
Good photography job! Maybe the edited first closeup picture of your Post 56 should be a sticky

 

[Olsensan]

I found that the seal in the slave cylinder cavity is leaky, I could smell the transmission fluid, figured I should change that too.

On another note, I want to replace the seal for the FD input shaft that comes out of the transmission to the FD. I have read several procedures and wonder why I can't yank the FD shaft off the transmission without first removing the FD unit. Anyone ever attempt that?

 

[MotorradMike]

On another note, I want to replace the seal for the FD input shaft that comes out of the transmission to the FD. I have read several procedures and wonder why I can't yank the FD shaft off the transmission without first removing the FD unit. Anyone ever attempt that?
2/

You can split the bike at the front of the swingarm if you want, some guys even leave the back wheel on. I think the assembly would be pretty heavy but what do I know. I think you mean the transmission output shaft seal. Not meaning to be picky but terminology is important IMHO.

 

[Olsensan]

Some may wonder that something is missing or strange here. I had mentioned that I bought a clutch slave cyl. from Beemer Boneyard and thought that it may be a refurb rather than original OEM equipment. After looking more closely at both units, I realized I am more than likely incorrect. Therefore, out of fairness to them I deleted the entry from my last post.

In reply to Mikes post above:

Yes, that is correct Mike, thanks for clarifying that. I was struggling to come up with the proper name.



I have a link here to share for RB racing and they address the issue of BMW spline problems with clutch plates which they sell. Here is the link, I'd like to hear what the Mech Eng and mechanical guys have to say about this. It seems to make good sense.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/bmw_clutches.html

 

[PGlaves]

Did any of you guys use lubricant on the fuel injector and throttle body o-rings during re-assembly? If so what brand/type/where to get. Thanks again --Greg O

I use a little smear of ordinary silicone dielectric grease. I favor it because I know that it is benign with almost all types of rubber. Some formulations of grease don't like rubber bits. I use it on seals, O rings, and hoses so that they don't stick too.

 

[roger 04 rt]

I use a little smear of ordinary silicone dielectric grease. *I favor it because I know that it is benign with almost all types of rubber. *Some formulations of grease don't like rubber bits. *I use it on seals, O rings, and hoses so that they don't stick too.

The silicone grease seems a logical choice with the caveat that it is used sparingly and in a manner that it doesn't get drawn into the throttle body. Recently, I've been working O2 sensor issues and came across this:

"A lambda sensorÔÇÖs normal life span is 30,000 to 50,000 miles, but the sensor may fail prematurely if it becomes clogged with carbon, or is contaminated by lead from leaded petrol or silicone from an antifreeze leak or from silicone sealer."

I don't know much about lubricants, are there any that are benign to rubber and oxygen sensors?

 

[nrpetersen]

I have a link here to share for RB racing and they address the issue of BMW spline problems with clutch plates which they sell. Here is the link, I'd like to hear what the Mech Eng and mechanical guys have to say about this. It seems to make good sense.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/bmw_clutches.html

They totally missed the reason for the failed male spline pictured.

The rest of their stuff reads pretty well though the primary chain housing could have been made from stronger & easier to machine 2024 T351 aluminum, and not 6061-T6 which is only architectural aluminum. It does polish better than 2024 though.

I was surprised at the level of compression on an engaged clutch disk. 1 N/sq mm means our M/C clutches have nearly 3000 lbs compression on them. I have always guessed only 1000 lbs. Actual probably is somewhere in between.

That's some absolutely magnificent English Wheel work on the race bike fairing. Interesting THX

 

[kantuckid]

The silicone grease seems a logical choice with the caveat that it is used sparingly and in a manner that it doesn't get drawn into the throttle body. Recently, I've been working O2 sensor issues and came across this:

"A lambda sensorÔÇÖs normal life span is 30,000 to 50,000 miles, but the sensor may fail prematurely if it becomes clogged with carbon, or is contaminated by lead from leaded petrol or silicone from an antifreeze leak or from silicone sealer."

I don't know much about lubricants, are there any that are benign to rubber and oxygen sensors?

I have a tube of Dow silicone in a squeeze tube that is kind to rubber-been in my toolbox for 40+ yrs. Not kind to paint work as in repainting/adhesion. Glycerin is great for things like door seals on cars but only lasts for awhile, then needs redone.

 

[Olsensan]

I need to ask how any of you removed the Clutch rod seal. I looked at one thread the fellow had a 45 degree offset pic. What is the best way to tackle this and the input shaft seal to the FD?

I am editing this now. I drilled a 1/32" hole in the seal in order to place a small screw in it and pull it out. Makes sense right? This seal is in so tight, the entire rear unit pulls along with pulling on the little screw holding just by about 1/16th imbedded in the seal. Yikes, any ideas?