FD Failure _Dealer Explaination

[MOTOR31]

There are multiple threads in multiple sections of the board here all dealing with the FD issue. Obviously it is a concern of the membership on the board. Since the magazine is almost entirely one way communication, who knows what the rest of the non electronically inclined membership thinks.

This was posted on the tarnished roundel thread in campfire. Since this thread deals with the same issue I am duplicating it here. The link indicated was for IBR entrants data including name bike info and finish placement. Here is what I did working with a few of the numbers.

Using the link that was provided earlier I decided to do a bit of checking. I am assuming the data on the linked site for the IBR data is correct.

First a proviso, that itÔÇÖs difficult to draw too many conclusions from the data as not all of the reasons for DNF entrants are known. Only in the case of a few BMWÔÇÖs and that number (4 vs. 3) is still in dispute. IÔÇÖll continue to use the 4 FD failures as confirmed by Paul.

Here are the bare total IBR numbers.
(all % rounded down)
97 entrants
33 DNF (all brands all reasons)
34% DNF rate

The Brand participation numbers in decreasing order.

BMW 40
Honda 29
Yamaha 14
Suzuki 5
HD 3
Kawasaki 3
Buel 1
Victory 1
Truimph 1
___
Total 97

Obviously BMW has the highest percentage of entrants at 41%

Of the total DNF there were 16 BMWÔÇÖs or .40% of all DNF all causes.

Only the 4 FDÔÇÖs, all 1200GS model FDÔÇÖs including the one I saw posted was installed in Rob NyeÔÇÖs RTP, are the ones I have any info on and gleaned informally from the BBS. There were a total of seven 1200GS (GSA) models listed. Adding RobÔÇÖs RTP FD to it indicates that of the eight 1200 GS FD equipped bikes 4 failed for a 50% failure rate. Even if it turns out there were only 3, that is still a 37% failure rate.

Other than for the FD issue with the 1200 GS bike there is no real info to draw conclusions from even with the numbers of total entered and DNF by brand.

IÔÇÖve seen things posted regarding a 10% failure rate and what not. Given the info I have seen, comparing only apples to apples (1200GS FD equipment) the failure rate far exceeds 10%.

 

[JWHITE518]

This analysis shouldn't include all DNFs without regard for reason, because some people DNF'd for non-mechanical reasons. To get the true percentage you'd have to exclude the non-mechanical DNFs. To get really anal about it, you should also exclude the new GT's since they have a different FD.

 

[deilenberger]

First a proviso, that it’s difficult to draw too many conclusions from the data as not all of the reasons for DNF entrants are known. Only in the case of a few BMW’s and that number (4 vs. 3) is still in dispute. I’ll continue to use the 4 FD failures as confirmed by Paul.

I assume you mean Paul Glaves? Last I emailed with him (last night) there were 2 R1200## drives that failed - and one R1150xx.

Has this information changed somehow? It would seem counting 4 would be double the amount of hexhead FD failures I've heard of.. (and this is a hexhead forum) and in discussions with Paul - the reason for the drive failure was a loss of oil that went unnoticed by the IB riders. Paul's feeling, and mine also - is that most "casual" riders would have noticed the oil loss before drive bearing failure occurred.

This failure scenario agrees with the one drive failure I know of personally (a local club member.)

Just as an aside - I suspect the failure mode of hexhead drives is very much different from the well known bearing failure on oilhead drives. Nothing confirmed on this yet - but the new drive design is likely partly due to the failures in the old design.

 

[cjack]

I assume you mean Paul Glaves? Last I emailed with him (last night) there were 2 R1200## drives that failed - and one R1150xx.

Has this information changed somehow? It would seem counting 4 would be double the amount of hexhead FD failures I've heard of.. (and this is a hexhead forum) and in discussions with Paul - the reason for the drive failure was a loss of oil that went unnoticed by the IB riders. Paul's feeling, and mine also - is that most "casual" riders would have noticed the oil loss before drive bearing failure occurred.

This failure scenario agrees with the one drive failure I know of personally (a local club member.)

Just as an aside - I suspect the failure mode of hexhead drives is very much different from the well known bearing failure on oilhead drives. Nothing confirmed on this yet - but the new drive design is likely partly due to the failures in the old design.

Well I was thinking that it might be possible to ride a few hundred miles and not know that you lost a cup of oil in the dark...maybe not. It would have come out of the outside big seal area of the drive. Not near the wheel. Just a thought.

 

[deilenberger]

Well I was thinking that it might be possible to ride a few hundred miles and not know that you lost a cup of oil in the dark...maybe not. It would have come out of the outside big seal area of the drive. Not near the wheel. Just a thought.

Jack - no argument there.. just if the experience of the local club member who lost his rear drive was typical - he went over 2,000 miles after loosing enough oil that the ABS/Speedo sensor melted down from heat before the bearings actually failed. And yes - it was the outside seal that failed.

 

[dbrick]

...if the experience of the local club member who lost his rear drive was typical - he went over 2,000 miles...

At one regular service, my dealer drained and neglected to refill the final drive. The bike went almost 4K miles before the rear drive turned to crinkly.

 

[MOTOR31]

I assume you mean Paul Glaves? Last I emailed with him (last night) there were 2 R1200## drives that failed - and one R1150xx.

Has this information changed somehow? It would seem counting 4 would be double the amount of hexhead FD failures I've heard of.. (and this is a hexhead forum) and in discussions with Paul - the reason for the drive failure was a loss of oil that went unnoticed by the IB riders. Paul's feeling, and mine also - is that most "casual" riders would have noticed the oil loss before drive bearing failure occurred.

This failure scenario agrees with the one drive failure I know of personally (a local club member.)

Just as an aside - I suspect the failure mode of hexhead drives is very much different from the well known bearing failure on oilhead drives. Nothing confirmed on this yet - but the new drive design is likely partly due to the failures in the old design.

Don,

This is the inormation I based the 4 FD failures on. It was a post in response to a question I posed about the confusion aboput the reported number of FD failures.

The two originally disclosed are not the only ones. In fact, there were four failures of R1200GS drives: Glenn Pancoast, as I originally reported and Rob Nye's GS drive in an R1200RTP. Also, lost in the fog - finisher in 55th position Rick Neeley had his final drive replaced at the dealership in Las Vegas. And, Gerhard Mennen Krueger's R1200GS was reported "GS broke", and it was originally reported as an engine seal. It was in fact the final drive according what Gerhard told IBR staff.

So - four R1200GS new style final drives failed during the rally. Unless there is another finisher with a heretofore unreported failure that is the correct total.

Interestingly, I don't think any of the older style Oilhead final drives failed this year.

I apologize for any confusion.

As you can see this was rather specific in information.

 

[MOTOR31]

This analysis shouldn't include all DNFs without regard for reason, because some people DNF'd for non-mechanical reasons. To get the true percentage you'd have to exclude the non-mechanical DNFs. To get really anal about it, you should also exclude the new GT's since they have a different FD.

Before you levy criticism about it you might want to read the entire post. I only included the total number of BMW's entered as well as the total number of DNF as the percentages are the same 41% and 40%. That indicates a null issue specifically to the brand overall.

I noted that the data was incomplete and did not draw conclusions from it. I merely reported specifically on one model because of the numbers and info I was able to gain about it. The one specifically about the FD failures all being 1200GS bikes plus the RTP that is reported to have a GS FD installed in it. Here is what I posted about that.

First a proviso, that itÔÇÖs difficult to draw too many conclusions from the data as not all of the reasons for DNF entrants are known. Only in the case of a few BMWÔÇÖs and that number (4 vs. 3) is still in dispute. IÔÇÖll continue to use the 4 FD failures as confirmed by Paul.

I noted in it that I did not have the reasons for all of the DNF's and that I was not basing the FD stats off of that.

What I did find interesting is this:

Only the 4 FDÔÇÖs, all 1200GS model FDÔÇÖs including the one I saw posted was installed in Rob NyeÔÇÖs RTP, are the ones I have any info on and gleaned informally from the BBS. There were a total of seven 1200GS (GSA) models listed. Adding RobÔÇÖs RTP FD to it indicates that of the eight 1200 GS FD equipped bikes 4 failed for a 50% failure rate. Even if it turns out there were only 3, that is still a 37% failure rate.

Other than for the FD issue with the 1200 GS bike there is no real info to draw conclusions from even with the numbers of total entered and DNF by brand.

Only one particular model BMW had a reported FD failure, the 1200GS. I included the RTP as it is reputed to have the GS FD.

FWIW I DID exclude all of the other dnf's and models of BMW from this brief look and what I posted. I did look at all of the numbers including all of the other bikes, how many entered and how many finished. It appears that of all of the brand motorcycles that had multiple bikes entered only Suzuki had a zero DNF, all 5 entered finished. Not only did I not draw a conclusion about it, I didn't even mention it until now.

 

[j-budimlya]

From this data, one might conclude that you can ride a 1200GS anywhere you want; if, you replace the GS final drive with an 1200RT final drive....

Somehow, I suspect my conclusion is flawed .....

 

[dixonduke]

Someone asked what type of failures people had - My failure was a total catastrophic failure of the rear wheel bearings.

This was my experience as well.

Yes this was me in Sept of 2006 after owning my 1200 GS Adv for 4 1/2 months & 11,000 miles of perfect bliss. Had a bearing sieze and heated things up a bit. (you think? )

It was replaced under warranty and I have almost 30,000 miles on the clock now with no more problems. This week I just returned from a 8,000 plus mile ride over the last 14 days and will say that I am still very confident in my bike.

I am also fairly confident that this is a quality control issue at time of manufacture, with either the seating of the bearing in the race or insufficiant lubrication. I am sure that some of my more spirited miles and my 250 LB butt, and another maybe 30/40 pounds of gear (panniers/camping bag/clothes & what nots) could have also contributed to the timing of it as well.

It is water under the bridge now, as reguarlly changing out the final drive lube is part of my maintenance schedule. Well I say reguarlly. I did it when I returned to Houston after my replacement FD was fitted in Grand Junction, CO; 1100 miles later. Then before I left on this years vacation ride to the the PNW via CO, 8200 miles ago. So twice since new drive installed in 18,000 miles. I guess that is regular, HUH?.

Don't know if I really have a point to all of this other than to say, enjoy the ride until if the unfortnate occurs. Then do your best to define within yourself if your still confident in the bike. For me I am truly confident that it is but of the rarest of occasions that lighting strikes the same place twice. (This is why I avoid Rock Springs, WY from now on )

Duke

 

[rob nye]

Is the RTP manufactured with a GS final drive, or did Rob Nye modify his RTP?

The police bike comes with a lower rear end (same as GS Adventure) than the civilian model.

You need to remove the entire drive to check / change the oil which was done on mine at the 600 service.

My bike now has a rear drive from a civilian RT.

There was also a third drive failure in the IBR.

As far as hard running, I had been on the road for 18 hours of which four were sleep and gas. We were running with the flow of traffic on the Trans-Canada highway. Fully loaded I have less than 80 lbs of gear, clothing and extra fuel on the bike.



Best,

Rob Nye

 

[roostershooter]

You need to remove the entire drive to check / change the oil which was done on mine at the 600 service.

My bike now has a rear drive from a civilian RT.

There was also a third drive failure in the IBR.

As far as hard running, I had been on the road for 18 hours of which four were sleep and gas. We were running with the flow of traffic on the Trans-Canada highway. Fully loaded I have less than 80 lbs of gear, clothing and extra fuel on the bike.



Best,

Rob Nye

On one of the other FD posts somewhere, someone mentioned that maybe some of the Iron Butt Riders were to hard on the FD's, ie: hard acceleration, running for hours on end.Those things are probably true but, I don't think that would be the cause for failure. Regardless, my hat's off to you and the other competitors.

 

[deilenberger]

I am also fairly confident that this is a quality control issue at time of manufactue, with either the seating of the bearing in the race or insufficant lubrication.

Snippage..

Duke

The thought of insufficient lube - or perhaps contaminated fluid - is an interesting one. The one drive in our local club that failed - had it's fluid changed about 4,000 miles before the failure occurred. The bike at that time had about 16,000 miles on it - with the original fluid. When the fluid was changed - the mechanic who changed it (a good friend, and independent mechanic) said the fluid was dark, smelled burned and had some metal chunks in it.

I have also heard reports of other people who have changed the factory fill fluid - and it came out black - as if it had moly in it (which I very much doubt..)

It leads me to wonder if some of the drives were contaminated in some way that caused the "lifetime" fluid to break down. That would explain why BMW has now added a fluid change to the 600 mile service.

A question for everyone: Has anyone who had the fluid changed at 600 miles experienced a rear drive failure?

I suspect not - but perhaps the reason being this change requirement is fairly recent. Mine has been fine, and the fluid drained from it at 600 miles looked clear. Anyone observing anything different?

 

[cjack]

Snippage..The thought of insufficient lube - or perhaps contaminated fluid - is an interesting one. The one drive in our local club that failed - had it's fluid changed about 4,000 miles before the failure occurred. The bike at that time had about 16,000 miles on it - with the original fluid. When the fluid was changed - the mechanic who changed it (a good friend, and independent mechanic) said the fluid was dark, smelled burned and had some metal chunks in it.

I have also heard reports of other people who have changed the factory fill fluid - and it came out black - as if it had moly in it (which I very much doubt..)

It leads me to wonder if some of the drives were contaminated in some way that caused the "lifetime" fluid to break down. That would explain why BMW has now added a fluid change to the 600 mile service.

A question for everyone: Has anyone who had the fluid changed at 600 miles experienced a rear drive failure?

I suspect not - but perhaps the reason being this change requirement is fairly recent. Mine has been fine, and the fluid drained from it at 600 miles looked clear. Anyone observing anything different?

We have 3 K12Ses and the two '05s had sort of clear original gear oil in them after about 10K miles each. But there was some black in them. The magnets had really black magnetic dust in them. The '06 K12S had really black oil which looked a lot like moly. It also had really black metallic dust in it's magnet drain plug. Really stained my fingers, etc.
So I don't know. Was it black gear dust, moly, or both?
I have also seen brand new transmissions and final drives (pre 1200 types) come from the factory with black oil or oil residue in them. I assumed that they had moly or moly assembly type oil in them. These were units that were never run from parts depots. I have also seen them come in with clear oil in them.

 

[deilenberger]

We have 3 K12Ses and the two '05s had sort of clear original gear oil in them after about 10K miles each. But there was some black in them. The magnets had really black magnetic dust in them. The '06 K12S had really black oil which looked a lot like moly. It also had really black metallic dust in it's magnet drain plug. Really stained my fingers, etc.
So I don't know. Was it black gear dust, moly, or both?

Well - moly isn't magnetic.. so the stuff on the magnet likely was steel. It makes me wonder what's used by the subcontractor (Getrag? ZF?) in machining the gear sets? And if it's ever cleaned off before assembly.

I have also seen brand new transmissions and final drives (pre 1200 types) come from the factory with black oil or oil residue in them. I assumed that they had moly or moly assembly type oil in them. These were units that were never run from parts depots. I have also seen them come in with clear oil in them.

Be interesting to get a sample of drained gear oil that's right out of an untouched drive and have it analyzed by Blackstone Labs.. wonder what that might tell us..?

 

[deilenberger]

'duh

Just re-read Rob's message. His bike had the 600 mile oil change on the rear drive (that later failed..) so guess that theory is out the door.

Damn, that would have been an excellent one..

 

[FredRydr]

Be interesting to get a sample of drained gear oil that's right out of an untouched drive and have it analyzed by Blackstone Labs.. wonder what that might tell us..?

Don,

Good idea. An opportunity for the MOA to do some sleuthing for its members!

Fred

 

[mrich12000]

Rear Diff's in general

Just lubed the spline on my K. Tube was soooooo dry. Simple job, did it the Anton way. and lucky I did this as I was off Friday for the Green at Ridon VM. for the weekend. on inspection I found the pinion nut had backed off and was 1-3 mm from the bearing. So pulled the unit off the bike re torqued the nut with red loc-tite (r) found a little bit of silver on the refill, put all back, road test all in good nick
so even a bike with 159890 on the clock can have a wheel siezing problem just like a new one

To Rob Nye good on you for your super effort in the Iron bum... buy you a beer in Vemont And Paul .

 

[dlearl476]

More dream interpretation, divine revelation, and WAG's

In absence of any real facts:

I was at the dealer yesterday and his take was this:

The FDs come with a break-in oil that HAS to be changed at the 600 mile service. Due to some poor communications and misunderstanding, this wasn't done on a lot of bikes and caused failures. Sounds reasonable.

I also gather from some of the posts that folks have had FDs repaired and the OLD shims put back in. I don't have any personal experience with these like Paul does, but this sounds incredible to me. Reminds me of some musicians I know who think their instruments were "tuned at the factory". (Sorry, it's a derogatory inside sound guy remark) The whole pupose of a shim, AFAIK, is to make up for slight variations in the manufactured parts. To accept that two different bearings are EXACTLY the same size and hence apply the exact same preload in an application is naive, at best.

Lastly, the seals. If, as Rob states, the proceedure for changing the fluid is to remove the FD, drain, refill, and re-seal the drive, that makes a lot of room for error, IMO. If this thing is sealed, the exact quantity and type of lubrication would be critical. Early on there was talk of "if it's thicker, it must be better" mentality causing folks to use 80W/140 gear lube when 89W/90 was spec-ed. I would think this would be catastophic given the app. If the lube cant flow into the balls, it's gonna overheat, which is gonna mean "someting's gotta give". Given that there no longer a vent on these drives, that "something" is gonna be the seal, IMO.

So here's my WAG: All the above. I'd surmise some failed from one cause or the other. Possibly even more failed from two, and combine all three and there's no way your drive is gonna last long at all. But that's just my guess. The flip side of the coin is get all three right and your FD will last forever.

IMO, if there is a real design flaw in this system, it is doing away with the drain and vent, making temperature and pressure variations possibly lethal which, in turn, mandates absolute perfection in the replacing of the seal, a job which now has to be done every time the fluid is changed.

 

[deilenberger]

There are a few problems with your hypothesis - although in the absence of facts - it's probably as good as any..

- The drives which were repaired with new bearings were not hexhead drives. So far - in every case I've heard of - BMW replaces the new style drive as a unit. If there is a problem with shimming variances - it's coming right from the factory (which is likely a subcontractor - Getrag or ZF.) I think it's important to note that the design of the hexhead/new-K drives is really completely different from the older oilhead/K drives. AFAIK - not a single part is shared between them, including bearings, seals, casing, etc. The fact that they're being replaced as a unit make me guess (no knowledge - just a bit on how BMW does this sort of thing on the car side) - that they're kicking the problem ones back to a subcontractor who originally manufactured them, and the subcontractor is paying for the replacement drive. They've been known to do this with assemblies on the car side for years.

- The seal being replaced on some drives is the shaft seal on the outboard side of the drive.. the one under the nice little rubber cover on that side. This isn't normally removed when changing the oil. The only seals that would be replaced when changing the oil are one on the ABS sensor (an O ring seal) - which is used to refill the drive and one on the drain plug used to drain it.

- The story I heard - which was from a source that claimed they heard it from BMW - but I can't be certain it's entirely accurate - is the reason the oil is being changed at 600 miles is it may have some contamination left from the original machining process. I can't think of any reason to use any sort of break-in oil on a gearbox that has gears and bearings - "break-in" of either of these implies wear - and that's exactly what isn't needed or wanted.

But - in the absence of a drive that failed to take apart, or have analyzed - it's all guesswork on our part and the dealer's part. Or if someone who is going in for the 600 mile service could capture a sample of their oil in a CLEAN glass jar - perhaps we could have it analyzed and actually have some data to hypothesis about.