Pure-Gas: For How Long?

[20774]

For those with older vehicles: There hasn't been much discussion about the future of pure-gas, non-ethanol fuel, which is available around the country. The pure-gas website is here:

http://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp

A quick search found this old thread:

https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?49483-Petition-Keep-Ethanol-Free-Gas-Available

I received a link to a recent Autoweek article that mentions that ethanol-free fuel will be around at least for next year, 2017, but after that it remains to be seen.

http://autoweek.com/article/classic-cars/ethanol-free-gasoline-appears-be-safe-next-year-least

I haven't really seen any significant issues with ethanol laced fuel, at least the 10% variety. But if the EPA continues to drive for more and more percentages of ethanol, my fleet of vehicles is really going to be hurting!!

 

[PGlaves]

For those with older vehicles: There hasn't been much discussion about the future of pure-gas, non-ethanol fuel, which is available around the country. The pure-gas website is here:

http://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp

A quick search found this old thread:

https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?49483-Petition-Keep-Ethanol-Free-Gas-Available

I received a link to a recent Autoweek article that mentions that ethanol-free fuel will be around at least for next year, 2017, but after that it remains to be seen.

http://autoweek.com/article/classic-cars/ethanol-free-gasoline-appears-be-safe-next-year-least

I haven't really seen any significant issues with ethanol laced fuel, at least the 10% variety. But if the EPA continues to drive for more and more percentages of ethanol, my fleet of vehicles is really going to be hurting!!

Airhead fuel lines and carb diaphrams suffer with 10% ethanol. Classic K bike fuel pump mounts dissolve in the stuff - but Bob's BMW has commissioned aftermarket mounts that don't. I don't know of much problem with Oilhead and later models other than a 5 to 10% reduction in fuel mileage.

It is a corn farmers and big corporate ag scam that wastes more energy than it saves but Congress likes it for $ome $trange rea$on.

 

[36654]

Airhead fuel lines and carb diaphrams suffer with 10% ethanol. Classic K bike fuel pump mounts dissolve in the stuff - but Bob's BMW has commissioned aftermarket mounts that don't. I don't know of much problem with Oilhead and later models other than a 5 to 10% reduction in fuel mileage.

It is a corn farmers and big corporate ag scam that wastes more energy than it saves but Congress likes it for $ome $trange rea$on.

Ethanol is preferable to MTBE

 

[Omega Man]

I think it will be available for some time, just through different outlets-

There are now many non-ethanol speciality blenders-

https://vpracingfuels.com

http://www.husqvarna.com/us/forest/basics/ethanol-free-fuel/

https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils--lubricants-and-fuels/premixed-fuel/motomix/

http://columbusenergies.com/racing-fuels/

It could become less convenient to get for sure. Most of the small aircraft running Lycoming engines have THIS as their fuel (gasoline) standard.

OM

 

[36654]

I think it will be available for some time, just through different outlets-

There are now many non-ethanol speciality blenders-

https://vpracingfuels.com

http://www.husqvarna.com/us/forest/basics/ethanol-free-fuel/

https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils--lubricants-and-fuels/premixed-fuel/motomix/

http://columbusenergies.com/racing-fuels/

It could become less convenient to get for sure. Most of the small aircraft running Lycoming engines have THIS as their fuel (gasoline) standard.

OM

Lycoming engines are built in Williamsport, Lycoming Co. PA. They were used in Auburn, Cord and Duesenberg cars.

 

[52184]

Ethanol is preferable to MTBE

And MTBE, properly handled and deployed, is probably safer than tetraethyl lead. But lowering the "better than" bar doesn't address the underlying issues. Ethanol as a fuel is fraught with problems. Here, most of the discussion centers upon ethanol's effects on our favorite machines. But as Paul pointed out, there are serious economic problems with the subsidies for alcohol production, and many of the direct production costs (fossil fuels used in production, petroleum-derived chemicals and fertilizers, etc.) and environmental costs (depletion of water resources like the Ogalalla Aquifer, herbicide/pesticide/fertilizer runoff, etc.) don't seem to get factored into analysis. Land management decisions like planting and crop rotation decisions get skewed by the subsidies and an artificially pumped-up market for corn, etc. It's a mess.

What we need are more people using 40+ mpg motorcycles instead of <20 mpg SUVs and such, but don't hold your breath.
Best,

DG

 

[36654]

And MTBE, properly handled and deployed, is probably safer than tetraethyl lead. But lowering the "better than" bar doesn't address the underlying issues. Ethanol as a fuel is fraught with problems. Here, most of the discussion centers upon ethanol's effects on our favorite machines. But as Paul pointed out, there are serious economic problems with the subsidies for alcohol production, and many of the direct production costs (fossil fuels used in production, petroleum-derived chemicals and fertilizers, etc.) and environmental costs (depletion of water resources like the Ogalalla Aquifer, herbicide/pesticide/fertilizer runoff, etc.) don't seem to get factored into analysis. Land management decisions like planting and crop rotation decisions get skewed by the subsidies and an artificially pumped-up market for corn, etc. It's a mess.

What we need are more people using 40+ mpg motorcycles instead of <20 mpg SUVs and such, but don't hold your breath.
Best,

DG

If I had to choose between the subsidies for ethanol or corn sugar, I guess I would choose ethanol. As a food, for humans or livestock, corn isn't that great of an option.

But, corn is an industry. It fattens livestock like crazy and heart of fly over land is dependent on it for income.

On the fuel conservation point, we are in complete agreement. Covering the distance on the least amount of fuel is the objective.

 

[swall]

The AMA magazine has published a couple of short paragraphs that infer that E0 gas availability is declining. The stated reason is that with 10% ethanol already in most gasoline based fuels, the blenders can't meet their blend obligations (set by EPA) if they sell E0 fuel. I can't accept this explanation, since a blender has the opportunity to buy credits (known as RINS) to make up for gasoline he is selling that is not blended. So, these blenders can continue to sell E0 gas as long as they buy RINS. Were it up to me, the blend mandate would be history. There is cost associated with issuing RINs, tracking them, tracking the gallons blended, setting blend amounts for each year--this is all busy work and it needs to cease. The ethanol produced will still continue to be sold and blended, as the oil companies will continue to use it as an octane booster. Using ethanol to boost 85 octane base stock gasoline is cheaper than the more intensive refining needed otherwise needed to boost 85 octane to 87 octane.

 

[jconway607]

It would be a much pleasanter world to live in, in so many ways.

 

[8ninety8]

Oxygenate can be used where needed, pure gas for the rest. Gas is constantly modified for seasonal consumption. No biggie. Pure for the plains, where the breezes blow. Cars will run on either. Bikes, little as they are used, will run better, longer, bikers will be happier, less ethanol will need be manufactured, less water from the aquifer, grow more grass, grow more beans, there are so many upsides.

 

[36654]

Oxygenate can be used where needed, pure gas for the rest. Gas is constantly modified for seasonal consumption. No biggie. Pure for the plains, where the breezes blow. Cars will run on either. Bikes, little as they are used, will run better, longer, bikers will be happier, less ethanol will need be manufactured, less water from the aquifer, grow more grass, grow more beans, there are so many upsides.

We'll wait for the Congressmen and Senators from the Great Ethanol-producing Plains states to pass these laws......

 

[36654]

The AMA magazine has published a couple of short paragraphs that infer that E0 gas availability is declining. The stated reason is that with 10% ethanol already in most gasoline based fuels, the blenders can't meet their blend obligations (set by EPA) if they sell E0 fuel. I can't accept this explanation, since a blender has the opportunity to buy credits (known as RINS) to make up for gasoline he is selling that is not blended. So, these blenders can continue to sell E0 gas as long as they buy RINS. Were it up to me, the blend mandate would be history. There is cost associated with issuing RINs, tracking them, tracking the gallons blended, setting blend amounts for each year--this is all busy work and it needs to cease. The ethanol produced will still continue to be sold and blended, as the oil companies will continue to use it as an octane booster. Using ethanol to boost 85 octane base stock gasoline is cheaper than the more intensive refining needed otherwise needed to boost 85 octane to 87 octane.

If the AMA was interested in more than a membership issue, they would be taking their money and coordinating an ethanol plan with the Ag. Industry and the plains states. As is, the AMA is just yammering about a wedge issue that potentially attracts a few members while continuing it's two-faced safety campaign.........."Safety equipment is good, but it's your American right not to wear safety equipment!"

 

[Stebe]

Just my personal experience, but when the E-10 hit the market, I noticed a 20% drop in MPG on my bike, (Harley Electra Glide) and the car (Ford Explorer). Also, the engine in my tiller burned out, had to buy a new riding mower after the valves fried. If 10% ethanol translated to 20% loss of mileage, I'm actually burning more gas. Now, with the R1200RT, the manual says avoid ethanol, and the Subaru seems oblivious. Still, whenever I can, I use real gas.

 

[36654]

Just my personal experience, but when the E-10 hit the market, I noticed a 20% drop in MPG on my bike, (Harley Electra Glide) and the car (Ford Explorer). Also, the engine in my tiller burned out, had to buy a new riding mower after the valves fried. If 10% ethanol translated to 20% loss of mileage, I'm actually burning more gas. Now, with the R1200RT, the manual says avoid ethanol, and the Subaru seems oblivious. Still, whenever I can, I use real gas.

If your seeing more than a 3% drop in mileage, something else is wrong with the engine or fuel injection system on your vehicle. The heat energy content of E10 is 97% of pure gasoline and the octane ratings are equivalent. The politics and economics of ethanol are one thing. The physics of the fuel and it's combustion are another.

Relative to BMW recommendations, E10 is approved by BMW.

 

[Stebe]

If your seeing more than a 3% drop in mileage, something else is wrong with the engine or fuel injection system on your vehicle. The heat energy content of E10 is 97% of pure gasoline and the octane ratings are equivalent. The politics and economics of ethanol are one thing. The physics of the fuel and it's combustion are another.

Relative to BMW recommendations, E10 is approved by BMW.

I thought so, too, but couldn't find anything else. Don't have either of those vehicles anymore, though. Still didn't appreciate having to replace the small engines.

 

[AKsuited]

What we need are more people using 40+ mpg motorcycles instead of <20 mpg SUVs and such, but don't hold your breath.

+1

Pet peeve: people who leave their gas-hogs running in parking lots because they can't handle getting back into a cold (or hot) car: pansies!

Harry

 

[36654]

I thought so, too, but couldn't find anything else. Don't have either of those vehicles anymore, though. Still didn't appreciate having to replace the small engines.

I've been burning E10 for 2-decades in Stihl 2-strokes (trimmer & chainsaw), Honda lawn mower engines and a Kohler powered lawn tractor without issue.

 

[Stebe]

I've been burning E10 for 2-decades in Stihl 2-strokes (trimmer & chainsaw), Honda lawn mower engines and a Kohler powered lawn tractor without issue.

ok, doesn't change my experience.

Not arguing, just what happened. Changing plugs, wires, air filters, and cleaning carbs didn't help. One thing I did find, though, was that the fuel lines were deteriorating. Maybe gunk from that was the real culprit. What would have caused it? I've been told that there is a difference in the cane sugar ethanol that most studies were based on and the corn sugar ethanol we use here, the corn based ethanol being more hygroscopic, but I don't know.

 

[36654]

ok, doesn't change my experience.

Not arguing, just what happened. Changing plugs, wires, air filters, and cleaning carbs didn't help. One thing I did find, though, was that the fuel lines were deteriorating. Maybe gunk from that was the real culprit. What would have caused it? I've been told that there is a difference in the cane sugar ethanol that most studies were based on and the corn sugar ethanol we use here, the corn based ethanol being more hygroscopic, but I don't know.

My apologies for being abrupt in my prior responses. I was posting when other things should have been happening.

I've always been frustrated with some manufacturers that have been overly quick with the "bad fuel" response to engine performance problems. I had a few Detroit products and the garages were always saying bad fuel, clogged filters, etc. for an any engine performance problem. In the mean time, I owned Toyota beater cars, a strip standard Toyota Pick-up, several BMW used cars and few motorcycles.....rarely, if ever (perhaps, once) did I change a fuel filter or have a fuel related problem in any those vehicles. In the case of the Toyota Pick-up, I changed the plugs at 100K just for the heck of it.......and found eroded electrodes "below' the ceramic on all 4 plugs.....but, the engine ran decently. The only fuel issue on that vehicle was when the ground hog ate thru the fuel line..

As such, I'm of the opinion that some manufacturers just specify low quality products and the customer gets sub-par product life. Ironically, parts are parts, and the same companies build high quality components for Company A while Company C pays for lower quality parts. Ironically, Company C might build and supply higher quality components for Company A than they specify for their own Brand C cars.......

OK......I'm off my soap box.....

 

[swall]

Stebe--in the U.S. , ethanol is produced by using yeast to ferment a mixture of water and ground corn kernels. In Brazil, ethanol is produced by fermenting molasses squeezed from sugar cane. The second stage of production is to distill the fermented mixture to remove the ethanol. At that point, the ethanol from corn is indistinguishable from the ethanol from sugar cane. The final stage is to dehydrate the distilled product to remove the residual water content. In Brazil's earlier efforts, this step was not performed and the engines were run on this "neat" ethanol, which is 95% ethanol/5% water. In the U.S. a 99.5% ethanol product is required because it is blended into gasoline. If the water were not removed, a phase separation would occur, which is not a good thing.