Original YUASA YTZ14S - Finally Quit

[globalrider]

My shortest lived battery at 7 years and 4+ months. Maybe its because I always connected it to the BMW Advanced Battery Charging System when the vehicle was parked; a first for me because typically I spot charge my batteries when the voltage is reduced. The BMW dealer I bought my 2016 R1200 GSA from included the charger/maintainer at no extra cost.

Noted it Charged to 14.38V (advertized safe for FLA, GEL and AGM battery) and then switched to Maintenance Mode at about 13.7V.
A safe charge voltage but a bit high for a GEL and a bit low for an AGM.


Battery was quite dead. All I could hear is a relay clicking. Checked the on-bike voltage and with the ignition on ~8V. Removed the battery and charged it to be sure, but when you see the low voltage creaping up to 14.4V FAST, you know the battery has no capacity. Did a load test and it decreased from 12.98V to 4V in 6 seconds. This is my first AGM battery in any of my vehicles. So much for high tech because my conventional FLA batteries last much longer.



Anyway, if you are going for a ride with a friend who is coming over, start the motorcycle the day before to make sure. I did luckily; topped up my tires and hit the start button to get me to the gas station to fill up. Never got there! Don't you hate it when riders come over and they then all need to fill up before heading out.

Drove out early and picked up a new YUASA battery before he came over.

 

[Omega Man]

Removed the battery and charged it to be sure, but when you see the low voltage creaping up to 14.4V FAST, you know the battery has no capacity.

This is an important clue to a bad battery that isn’t mentioned very often.

OM

 

[globalrider]

This is an important clue to a bad battery that isn’t mentioned very often.

OM

OM, I worked in a battery lab in the defense department testing batteries, battery chargers/maintainers and battery test equipment. The first test on vehicle by it going to 8V was all it really needed when I switch the ignition on, considering it just came off the BMW charger/maintainer that I assumed worked. But there must be some Scottish in me, so I had to double check.

 

[globalrider]

I like spending money on tools and test equipment and although I did not need the latest tool I just bought due to some simple testing (more on that at the bottom), I gave it a try on a fully charged "failed" YUASA YTZ14S battery that I replaced last week.

Now having worked in a battery lab, I never gave much credit to fast 'n easy conductance testers that we tested. Why? Because when I did a REAL capacity test and a REAL load test, the conductance testers were close at best.

I bought the TOPDON BT200. It was on sale at Amazon and only $5 more then the BT100, the same tester, but only does 12V instead of 12V/24V, not that I can see much use for the 24V system.



And the readings from my original and failed R1200 GS Adventure battery that I fully charged...


I have no idea how they calculate Health at 2% and 32A when you have a 230A SAE rating.

As you can see the "state of charge" of the battery is at 100% and 12.90V which really is meaningless without further info. It is the open circuit voltage with no load (starter, headlights, ignition-on) applied when using a Digital Multi Meter on the battery.

The Internal R (reisitance) tells it all and that is basically what you are doing with a REAL load tester, where you'd be looking at the voltage drop to a minimum over a 15 second period while cranking the starter (the highest load in any vehicle, especially on a very cold morning). And 76.92 m Ohm is a very done battery when it comes to internal resistance.

So how did I know my battery was done before buying my tester?
1) seeing that the battery voltage dropped from about 12.6V to 8V, then 7V when I just tried to start it and then just with the ignition on. No capacity!
2) charging the battery and noted that it went from a relatively dead battery to 14.4V in a few minutes using a 1A battery charger.

 

[Omega Man]

I have a small, inexpensive version of that type of tester. It’s testing starts at 500 CCA so only good for larger batteries. I’m still learning it’s usefulness and have pretty much have come to the conclusion that it is something that I can use to observe/check an older battery that I’m not really having any trouble with.

Before any scientific testing equipment my two main testing was, along with age, were as you stated-

1) seeing that the battery voltage dropped from about 12.6V to 8V, then 7V when I just tried to start it and then just with the ignition on. No capacity!
2) charging the battery and noted that it went from a relatively dead battery to 14.4V in a few minutes using a 1A battery charger.

For those with an iPhone, there is an internal device that will help a user keep tabs on the phones battery health.

OM

 

[globalrider]

In comparison to the reading in post #4 above of 76.92 mOhm for the Internal Resistance, I took two measurements of the new battery today using the SAE and EN settings in the TOPDON battery tester. 230A SAE & 150A EN2 as listed on my new YUASA battery. I have to look up the difference between EN and EN2.

 

[globalrider]

Did a load test and it decreased from 12.98V to 4V in 6 seconds.

A load test is done at 1/2 the CCA rating or in this case for a CCA of 230A, at 115A.

With an internal resistance of 76.92 milli-ohm as shown in post #6, I would expect a voltage drop of 115A x 0.07692 ohm = 8.85V, and 12.98V - 8.85V = 4.13V.

Just some simple math but just wondering if the reasoning is correct as I usually do a load test on a battery that is in a better state of health.

 

[globalrider]

I never believed in leaving a charger/maintainer connected 24/365 unless you tend to forget to check the battery voltage or have some accessory that draws current all the time.

The only time I use a charger/maintainer is during winter storage and even that is rare because I prefer to spot-charge my batteries and then disconnect them. When I see the battery voltage drop to 12.5V (no less), I'll reconnect the charger for a few hours. I just checked my 14 Ah AGM motorcycle battery that I disconnected 28 days ago and it is still sitting at 12.9V.

 

[kinterridge]

CCA EN(EUROPEAN NORM) EN1 AND EN2. A little info.

CCA​

The number of amps a 12-volt battery can deliver at -17.8°C for 30 seconds while maintaining a voltage of at least 7.2 volts. The higher the CCA rating, the greater the starting power of the battery.

EN​

The EN test also is performed at -17.8°C. The EN requirement is however split into two levels: EN1 and EN2.

EN1 - The battery is required to meet a voltage of 7.5V after 10 seconds; and after 10 seconds rest, the battery is further discharged @ 0.6 x original current and is required to complete 73s in the second stage, giving a total combined discharge period of 90 seconds (assume initial period equates to (10s/0.6) 16.7 seconds.

EN2 - The first discharge is the same as EN1, but the second discharge period to 6.0V should achieve 133 seconds, giving a total time of 150 seconds. The discharge current’s ability to meet both designs is very much subject to battery design and can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and design to design. However, as an overview of our competitor benchmarking work at Shield, the relationship between EN1 and EN2 is: EN2 = 0.85% to 0.92% EN1

 

[Omega Man]

CCA EN(EUROPEAN NORM) EN1 AND EN2. A little info.

CCA​

The number of amps a 12-volt battery can deliver at -17.8°C for 30 seconds while maintaining a voltage of at least 7.2 volts. The higher the CCA rating, the greater the starting power of the battery.

EN​

The EN test also is performed at -17.8°C. The EN requirement is however split into two levels: EN1 and EN2.

EN1 - The battery is required to meet a voltage of 7.5V after 10 seconds; and after 10 seconds rest, the battery is further discharged @ 0.6 x original current and is required to complete 73s in the second stage, giving a total combined discharge period of 90 seconds (assume initial period equates to (10s/0.6) 16.7 seconds.

EN2 - The first discharge is the same as EN1, but the second discharge period to 6.0V should achieve 133 seconds, giving a total time of 150 seconds. The discharge current’s ability to meet both designs is very much subject to battery design and can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and design to design. However, as an overview of our competitor benchmarking work at Shield, the relationship between EN1 and EN2 is: EN2 = 0.85% to 0.92% EN1

Interesting, my experience is that once a battery dips below 9.2 volts the bike just wonders what you are trying to do.
OM

 

[globalrider]

CCA EN(EUROPEAN NORM) EN1 AND EN2. A little info.

Thanks for looking up the differences in the EN spec.

 

[globalrider]

Interesting, my experience is that once a battery dips below 9.2 volts the bike just wonders what you are trying to do.
OM

It would be interesting to know at what point voltage-wise an ECU in a vehicle will still work reliably. Obviously there must be a spec for that for any 12V system vehicle.

Also for higher spec'd CCA, the Internal Resistance has to be lower. We used to use Hawker Armasafe 6T AGM batteries with a CCA of 1225 and the Internal Resistance was 1.7 milli-ohms. On my new YUASA YTZ14S it would be around 11.36 milli-ohms, but then the CCA is only 230.

 

[Omega Man]

It would be interesting to know at what point voltage-wise an ECU in a vehicle will still work reliably. Obviously there must be a spec for that for any 12V system vehicle.

Also for higher spec'd CCA, the Internal Resistance has to be lower. We used to use Hawker Armasafe 6T AGM batteries with a CCA of 1225 and the Internal Resistance was 1.7 milli-ohms. On my new YUASA YTZ14S it would be around 11.36 milli-ohms, but then the CCA is only 230.

Most of information such as this was learned while I was obtained my degree in RedNeck Engineering.
I have around 18 batteries in use (starting). I date them when installed and take care of them as best I figure. When I detect a low or slow to start condition, I check the date and it usually coincides with what I figure is the typical life of the different batteries- and go buy a new one.
I have a couple of vehicles, purchased new, that I have found that the OEM supplied battery have lasted the longest.
I find that even with my electronics, Ham gear, OEM batteries always last longer than any factory replacement batteries.
OM

 

[pglaves]

Interesting, my experience is that once a battery dips below 9.2 volts the bike just wonders what you are trying to do.
OM

I think that is now true for most "modern" machinery. But in the olden days of yore with points and coils and nothing resembling a computer on or in the vehicle, 7.5 volts might have been a useful standard.

Interestingly, with a K75, declining voltage turned off the solid state ignition control unit first while the analog LJetronic ECU would still cause the injectors to squirt fuel. This caused wet spark plugs and a "flooded" condition. Which explains why experienced K75 riders carried a spare set of spark plugs in the tail cone.

 

[Omega Man]

I think that is now true for most "modern" machinery. But in the olden days of yore with points and coils and nothing resembling a computer on or in the vehicle, 7.5 volts might have been a useful standard.

Interestingly, with a K75, declining voltage turned off the solid state ignition first while the analog LJetronic ECU would still cause the injectors to squirt fuel. This caused wet spark plugs and a "flooded" condition. Which explains why experienced K75 riders carried a spare set of spark plugs in the tail cone.

I have some older diesel powered equipment that doesn’t require any voltage (battery). That is if you want to “drag” start them.
I can understand what you are saying about declining voltage not picking the decline that is the least problematic.
OM

 

[globalrider]

I have a couple of vehicles, purchased new, that I have found that the OEM supplied battery have lasted the longest.
OM

I noticed the same thing with two vehicles that were bought new and that we owned for 14 and 16 years. Both car batteries were made by Panasonic with the vehicle manufacturers label on them and both were conventional flooded lead acid batteries.

I guess that blows away the comment made by a particular battery vendor that all batteries are the same.

 

[oldcamper]

I had an F.I. bike that would spin over easily but simply not start below about 40 degrees. It turned out the ignition module would not fire if the cranking battery voltage dropped below about 10 volts. It was the same brand module as used by Honda. A new battery fixed that starting problem.