Oil

[f14rio]

OIL

(Personal Note: I did a TruthOrFiction check on this plus there is the link at the end of this info for accuracy- .)

Here's an interesting read, important and verifiable information :

About 6 months ago, the writer was watching a news program on oil and one of the Forbes Bros. was the guest.

The host said to Forbes, "I am going to ask you a direct question and I would like a direct answer;
How much oil does the U.S. have in the ground?"

Forbes did not miss a beat, he said, "more than all the Middle East put together."
Please read below.

The U. S. Geological Service issued a report in April 2008 that only scientists and
oil men knew was coming, but man was it big. It was a revised report (hadn't been updated
since 1995) on how much oil was in this area of the western 2/3 of
North Dakota, western South Dakota, and extreme eastern Montana ......
Check THIS out:

The Bakken is the largest domestic oil discovery since Alaska's Prudhoe Bay, and has the potential to
eliminate all American dependence on foreign oil. The Energy Information Administration (EIA)
estimates it at 503 billion barrels. Even if just 10% of the oil is recoverable...
at $107 a barrel, we're looking at a resource base worth more than $5.3 trillion.

"When I first briefed legislators on this, you could practically see their jaws hit the floor.
They had no idea." says Terry Johnson, the Montana Legislature's financial analyst.

"This sizable find is now the highest-producing onshore oil field found in the past 56 years,"
reports The Pittsburgh Post Gazette.
It's a formation known as the Williston Basin, but is more commonly referred to as the 'Bakken.'
It stretches from Northern Montana, through North Dakota and into Canada.

For years, U. S. oil exploration has been considered a dead end.
Even the 'Big Oil' companies gave up searching for major oil wells decades ago.
However, a recent technological breakthrough has opened up the Bakken's massive reserves.... and
we now have access to up to 500 billion barrels. And because this is light, sweet oil,
those billions of barrels will cost Americans
just $16 PER BARREL!

That's enough crude to fully fuel the American economy for 2041 years straight.
And if THAT didn't throw you on the floor, then this next one should - because it's from 2006!

U. S. Oil Discovery- Largest Reserve in the World Stansberry Report Online - 4/20/2006

Hidden 1,000 feet beneath the surface of the Rocky Mountains lies the largest untapped oil reserve
in the world. It is more than 2 TRILLION barrels. On August 8, 2005 President Bush mandated its extraction.

In three and a half years of high oil prices none has been extracted.
With this mother load of oil WHY are we still fighting over off-shore drilling?

They reported this stunning news:
We have more oil inside our borders, than all the other proven reserves on earth.
Here are the official estimates:

- 8-times as much oil as Saudi Arabia

- 18-times as much oil as Iraq

- 21-times as much oil as Kuwait

- 22-times as much oil as Iran

- 500-times as much oil as Yemen

- and it's all right here in the Western United States.

HOW can this BE? HOW can we NOT BE extracting this? Because the environmentalists and others have
blocked all efforts to help America become independent of foreign oil!

Again, we are letting a small group of people dictate our lives and our economy.....WHY?

James Bartis, lead researcher with the study says we've got more oil in this very compact
area than the entire Middle East -more than 2 TRILLION barrels untapped. That's more than all the
proven oil reserves of crude oil in the world today, reports The Denver Post.

Don't think 'OPEC' will drop its price - even with this
find? Think again! It's all about the competitive marketplace, - it has to.

Think OPEC just might be funding the environmentalists?
Got your attention yet? Now, while you're thinking about it, do this:

Pass this along. If you don't take a little time to do this,
then you should stifle yourself the next time you complain about gas prices -
by doing NOTHING, you forfeit your right to complain.

Now I just wonder what would happen in this country if every one of you sent this to every one in your address book.

By the way...this is all true. Check it out at the link below!!! GOOGLE it, or follow this link. It will blow your mind.

USGS Release: 3 to 4.3 Billion Barrels of Technically Recoverable Oil Assessed in North Dakota and MontanaÔÇÖs Bakken FormationÔÇö25 Times More Than 1995 EstimateÔÇö (4/10/2008 2:25:36 PM)
<http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1911>

Large Oil Deposits Found In Montana-Truth!

 

[36654]

It's oil shall which has a low recovery rate. Based on subsequent studies/estimates by the USGS and the state of North Dakota, the amount of recoverable oil in the whole formation is ~3.65 billion Barrels, of which ~2.2 Billion is in ND.

Is that a lot of oil? Yes. We (the US) consume 3.65 billion barrels per year.

 

[32232]

OIL



They reported this stunning news:
We have more oil inside our borders, than all the other proven reserves on earth.
Here are the official estimates:

- 8-times as much oil as Saudi Arabia

- 18-times as much oil as Iraq

- 21-times as much oil as Kuwait

- 22-times as much oil as Iran

- 500-times as much oil as Yemen

- and it's all right here in the Western United States.

HOW can this BE? HOW can we NOT BE extracting this? Because the environmentalists and others have
blocked all efforts to help America become independent of foreign oil!

Funny no mention at all is made of the number one exporter of oil to the US, supplying roughly twice the amount of oil that comes from Saudi Arabia, with oil reserves second only to Saudi.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/...ons/company_level_imports/current/import.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Canada

 

[GREGFUESS]

You probably know much more about this than I do, F14RIO. That's quite a spiel of information in your post. However, as 36654 pointed out, that is shale oil. Light and sweet? Well, define your terms. As a facilities engineer for the oil and gas industries for over 25 years, there are lots of ways to classify this stuff, and politicians toss around technical terms with disregard for the truth or meaning of those terms.

Shale oil is fine-grained sedimentary rock. Yes, rock. Rock is not light, it is dense and heavy. It is also rock that contains significant amounts of kerogen (a solid mixture of organic chemical compounds) from which liquid hydrocarbons can be extracted. Kerogen requires more processing to use than crude oil, which increases its cost as a crude-oil substitute both financially and in terms of its environmental impact. Deposits of oil shale occur around the world, including major deposits in the United States of America. Estimates of global deposits range from 2.8 trillion to 3.3 trillion barrels of recoverable oil - that's in the world, F14RIO - not the USA.

Having seen the impact shale gas has had on the US, the thought of attempting to extract Shale Oil makes me shake my head in wonder. These are not pie-in-the-sky, tree hugging environmentalists fighting these extraction techniques, F14RIO. These are everyday people who were unfortunate enough to have shale gas discovered on their property. To extract this stuff, you hydraulically fracture the rock, which so far has rendered productive water wells for entire cities unusable. That's the end of the story for gas.

For oil, the picture only gets worse once the stuff is above ground. This post is getting long, so I will cut it short here. There are plenty of articles for the non-technical, but believe me, you do not want this in your backyard. Personally, I do not want this stuff in my enemies back yard.

A little learning is a dangerous thing - and the school of hard knocks has a high tuition.

 

[f14rio]

The Bakken formation

The Bakken formation has been common knowledge for a very long time, with cumulative production at over 100MM barrels. There are serious issues in that the porosity averages around 5% and the permeability (ability to flow) is incredible low at 0.04 milidarcies. It is a dolomite formation between two shale layers. Production techniques are expensive horizontal drilling followed by massive muti-million dollar fracs. The gamble has high odds. There is an even larger reserve in South Texas called the San Miguel IV in Maverick County. The San Miguel is a tar sand located at depths between 1600 and 2400 feet with excellent porosity and permeability with reserves in the billions of barrels. The issue here is the viscosity of the oil, which is -4 API which means it is a solid at formation temperatures. Overburden ratios eliminate surface mining and steam coupled with fracturing seems the most viable. Since recovery techniques result in a high $/bbl production cost, recovery will await a higher oil price.

What many fail to grasp is the fact that as oil price goes up, worldwide recoverable reserves increase substantially (they can increase 100 fold in a single day) as oil price begins to exceed what was previously considered an excessive production cost per barrel for various formations. New technology, or in the case of massive fracs, an adaption of old technology that was previously considered cost prohibitive, will also technically increase recoverable reserves. The key word is "recoverable" when speaking of reserves. Many formations are not technically recoverable and many others are not financially feasible to produce.

People have listened to doom sayers for decades, when in reality, we have no shortage of oil, and reserves to last us many generations. The huge increases in gas prices is due to "Green" efforts and not oil shortages. They are wasted dollars for which there has been no return. I am getting old now, and I will just sit back and laugh at the masses who blindly follow in the footsteps of fools. There is not, nor has there ever been, a shortage of oil. We have more proven reserves today than we did when I was born. I liken this whole mess to our own local effort to segregate our trash at our homes at a high cost of multiple pick-ups, multiple containers, and tripled work load for waste pick-up, only to discover that the waste company was sending the segregated wastes to the landfill because there was no local market for the segregated wastes. Fools leading fools.

 

[36654]

Having seen the impact shale gas has had on the US, the thought of attempting to extract Shale Oil makes me shake my head in wonder. These are not pie-in-the-sky, tree hugging environmentalists fighting these extraction techniques, F14RIO. These are everyday people who were unfortunate enough to have shale gas discovered on their property. To extract this stuff, you hydraulically fracture the rock, which so far has rendered productive water wells for entire cities unusable. That's the end of the story for gas.

If I could only show you the TV commercials that the OK and TX gas drilling companies are showing in PA. According to them, any issues with fracking and water wells were resolved long ago in TX and OK. Typically, the commercials end with some statement like ..... "we wouldn't foul our own water, would we?.

Are you saying they might be "spinning the story"?

 

[GREGFUESS]

Fools leading fools in an apt description of what we have here, RIO. Since you choose to ignore the repeated experience of shale gas ruining domestic water supplies, and the increased potential for major environmental damage due shale oil, let's consider Mr Forbes claims of the great reserves in the US. And remember, the recovery of just the gas has mobilized those unconcerned or associated with any "environmental movement" or "green movement" to protest the ruination of their tap water. Same with those in Appalachia who were unfortunate enough to live on coal reserves.

Mr Forbes has financial interests in extracting US petroleum production, whether that involves burning rocks to extract it, or conventional recovery techniques, he gains by the production of that petroleum. If you like undrinkable water, the removal of several hundred feet of mountain top and the associated runnoff, you will love shale oil refining.

Of course, that cannot happen. Neither can the Valdez, neither can the BP Horizon, or the many that happen overseas that doesn't reach the US news. Having grown up in Houston, TX and having worked for the oil industry here in the US, in Russia, Africa and the middle east, these disasters are not new or unique events. They occur regularly, and are of minor complexity compared to shale oil extraction and refining.

I have been forthcoming about my background, RIO. I am asking who you work for and what you do for them. I smell a vested interest here.

 

[GREGFUESS]

If I could only show you the TV commercials that the OK and TX gas drilling companies are showing in PA. According to them, any issues with fracking and water wells were resolved long ago in TX and OK. Typically, the commercials end with some statement like ..... "we wouldn't foul our on water, would we?.

Are you saying they might be "spinning the story"?

Well, let me answer your question with a question, do you know that the oil sludge is still scraped off the rocks in Prince William Sound each summer? Did you know that BPs liability limits on the Horizon spill are limited and all costs in excess of $10B, while the damage is estimated at over $60B?

More directly to your question, no they are not spinning. They are lying.

 

[f14rio]

re:Fools leading fools in an apt description of what we have here, RIO

re: "I have been forthcoming about my background, RIO. I am asking who you work for and what you do for them. I smell a vested interest here."
..
you smell a rat?
.
i'm a retired marine lt/col. a twice wounded vietnam vet with over 200 combat missions. i put my ass on the line so people of your ilk can express themselves freely and offensively.
..

...

 

[Omega Man]

Moderator Interruption, This is the point in the thread where I need to remind you all to play nice. Thanks, Gary

 

[From MARS]

re: "I have been forthcoming about my background, RIO. I am asking who you work for and what you do for them. I smell a vested interest here."
..
you smell a rat?
.
i'm a retired marine lt/col. a twice wounded vietnam vet with over 200 combat missions. i put my ass on the line so people of your ilk can express themselves freely and offensively.
..

...

Col. I appreciate your service and the service of all of those that have served and are serving. In the interest of full disclosure, if you ever flew A-4's, I may have fixed your aircraft during my time in the Marines; '69-78. But these experiences don't make us experts on everything. Greg is like the intel guy. He's giving us information we may not have. He's filling in the blanks for those of us that read and interpret these reports from one perspective, but not necessarily the most informed perspective. The better the intel, the more likely the mission will be accomplished with the least amount of casualties.

It may be true that we can solve our oil problem with these reserves, just like it was true that the Marines could take any hill IF casualties were not considered a deterent. However, just like once your dead you're dead forever, once we despoil our water, its despoiled forever. I'm all for drilling but not if there is a chance that drilling means I have to go without water. Someday a technology will come along that will open up these reserves for our use, but I guess that day hasn't arrived based on what intel we have at this time.

The fact that we are getting older means that we are not the ones who will have to live with the decisions that are made today......at least not for too much longer. We have the responsibility to pass on to the kids a world worth living on. If that means we sacrifice a little today for a better future tomorrow, then so be it. We are Marines. We've always done more with less than any military organization in the world. Sacrifice comes naturally to us.

Tom

 

[f14rio]

well said, jarhead

pretty sure it was not me who turned this thread offensive.

 

[From MARS]

Thank you, Sir.

 

[Visian]

Moderator Interruption, This is the point in the thread where I need to remind you all to play nice. Thanks, Gary

there is a certain amount of condescension in this thread that i think we can do without, thanks for stepping in, Gary.

i'm no expert in this, so i will stfu, other that to say that there is no higher strategic priority in our country right now than to expand domestic production, storage and refinement of oil.

oil may not be the ideal long-term path, and i believe that developing technologies for alternative fuel sources is probably our second highest priority.

carbon-fed algae biofuels is one very promising direction.

not trying to be political, just focusing on the realities. no energy, no economy. no economy, no entitlements. no entitlements = social entropy (a nice way of saying things....)

ian

.

 

[GREGFUESS]

The facts, ma'am, and only the facts

RIO, I sent you a private message, hoping this thread would go away, and I regret that you chose to ignore it. I appreciate your point of view and understand that you are upset. When people do not share a similar opinion of what appears to be great news, that can be frustrating. I share your desire for a cheap, domestic supply of energy. Unfortunately, we may disagree on whether shale oil satisfies that desire.

I am sorry that you have been injured in the pursuit of your profession, and I am confused as to how that bolsters enhances shale oil as a cheap energy supply, or how that refutes the facts of the environmental devastation that its extraction and refining causes. While you may have been in refineries as a part of your work life, as someone who has spent a career in and around petroleum facilities, and has served in a technical role regarding their performance, I stick by the facts presented. If you have more than a passing knowledge of this topic, I am interested in your factual presentation, so please provide that.

I am responding to your post in an email in a spirit of common interests in motorcycles, and as token of esteem for the service you have offered to our country. As someone who has no military experience, I hope that you offered that service in defense of the Constitution, which I believe is a part of the oath sworn in accepting your position, and that you join me in participatory democracy, which by its definition is composed of divergent opinions and priorities.

A kindred spirit in motorcycles

Greg

 

[f14rio]

pm sent

the subject is not the issue.

the use of the word' fool' and questioning one's agenda,

"I am asking who you work for and what you do for them. I smell a vested interest here."
..
are the the things that got my goat.

in any case, i never had to apologize for something i didn't say.

so, sorry greg.
..
ed flanagan

 

[Polarbear]

?

Guess that why Ethanol is such a HIT! We try so hard, despite the noses on our face and still fail at an alarming rate. I wonder If I'll live to see another successful fuel source? Follow the money trail. Its politics and money. My lifetime has already seen vast improvements in our autos, using crude and the cars even get better mpg's than my GSA Beemer! Its not ethanol doing it...Go figure? I'm a "pro drilling" guy, love my water too but in states like California, the extremists just as soon see fresh water go to the ocean for the fish and natural rivers of a century ago!!!Who needs water??? Unreal expectations in so many minds today, just may be our ruin...Randy

 

[36654]

Guess that why Ethanol is such a HIT! We try so hard, despite the noses on our face and still fail at an alarming rate. I wonder If I'll live to see another successful fuel source? Follow the money trail. Its politics and money. My lifetime has already seen vast improvements in our autos, using crude and the cars even get better mpg's than my GSA Beemer! Its not ethanol doing it...Go figure? I'm a "pro drilling" guy, love my water too but in states like California, the extremists just as soon see fresh water go to the ocean for the fish and natural rivers of a century ago!!!Who needs water??? Unreal expectations in so many minds today, just may be our ruin...Randy

Randy,

I would argue that those cars with better gas mileage are due in part to a world economy where most places have much higher gas prices. If you solely considered the US auto market, fuel efficiency is rarely an good selling point. Currently, GM, Chrysler and Ford are profitable, because of SUV sales.

If you don't like ethanol write a letter to the farm state politicians and CEO's of Monsanto, Cargill and ADM. Is it pure politics, you betcha. But, that's the benefits of being states with low population densities.......You get disproportionate representation. Is it going to change? No.

 

[GREGFUESS]

I share 36654's thoughts on the situation and likelihood for improvement in the politics of petroleum as fuel. There are too many examples of corporate interests trumping popular positions to mention here, and since it seems to be so rooted in both parties, mentioning a few could cause a debate not appropriate to this forum.

However, I do take exception to a fringe aspect of 36654's statement, that this will never change. Change is possible, with Egypt only the most recent example. Will this happen? I am convinced that it will, though whether in my lifetime or not, who knows. I forget whose tagline it is, but someone here places a statement to the effect that when peaceful change is prevented, violent change is inevitable. I fear that our political leaders are preventing the former, leaving only the latter alternative.

 

[36654]

I share 36654's thoughts on the situation and likelihood for improvement in the politics of petroleum as fuel. There are too many examples of corporate interests trumping popular positions to mention here, and since it seems to be so rooted in both parties, mentioning a few could cause a debate not appropriate to this forum.

However, I do take exception to a fringe aspect of 36654's statement, that this will never change. Change is possible, with Egypt only the most recent example. Will this happen? I am convinced that it will, though whether in my lifetime or not, who knows. I forget whose tagline it is, but someone here places a statement to the effect that when peaceful change is prevented, violent change is inevitable. I fear that our political leaders are preventing the former, leaving only the latter alternative.

Greg,

Change comes when economic conditions demand or force it. That is the lesson from Egypt and many other countries that are currently dealing with escalating food prices and minimal economic growth. The US was fortunate in the Great Depression when the gov't maintained public support. In the post WWI collapse, Germany was not fortunate, the political parties became fractured, gridlock ensued and a reactionary group was elected to power and changed world history. But, at the time, many notable Americans liked the new German gov't because they were anti-communist and pro-business.

Change will come, but it's direction is unknown. After the market crash in 2007, I assumed that we would reassess our economic plans and try to avoid the stock market fixation and spend all you have model. But, that approach seems to have died and we are back to telling everyone to spend every cent and betting on the stock market to deliver us paper profits. In many ways, we are repeating the frequent boom and bust cycles which dominated the post Civil War era, when America was a developing nation with weak national and local governments.

Jon