Wheels/Tubes

[rbleau]

It is a cost / risk / benefit analysis. My personal experience suggests that using tubes provides a form of both ÔÇ£belt and suspendersÔÇØ to hold up oneÔÇÖs trousers, and the benefit outweighs the additional cost and inconvenience.

A similar example: use of Safety wire on nuts and bolts. Safety wire is used extensively in aviation, often in auto / bike racing, rarely on production cars and bikes.

The probability of failure / consequence of failure analysis between autos and bikes would be an interesting thing to quantify. Loss of one wheel/tire on an auto is likely a lesser consequence than loss of one wheel or tire on a motorcycle.

I took a nail once in a nearly new tubeless tire on my 1988 Kawasaki 750R. I lived 4 miles from a Vance & Hines shop. They put a racing tube in that tubeless tire and gave me a good to go. And go I did ! Rode Angeles Crest every weekend for a year or so.

So, there you have two cents: cost / risk / benefit algorithm.

Cheers / Ron

 

[orbitangel]

Accuracy in Media

Orbitangel- i've read your comments on the dangers of tubeless tires, and how they will leave you flat.
but i'm curious- is this something you have experienced, or have some other empirical info on? because i can speak from personal experience- but at "not quite" 100 mph levels.
I hit a cutaway around a manhole in the center of the road at around 40 (my bad, i was talking to my cousin on the back, as we went to DMV to do the paperwork on his purchase of my K75). Smacked hard going in, and again going out of it- probably a 6" lip or so on each side. Checked the rims, nothing too obvious, tires did fine. Ended up denting both rims enough so that i needd to have them straightened (even the rear ding induced a shimmy at around 45 mph)- but tires held fine, never lost air. Not sure what would happen at higher speeds.
The guy who repaired them for me http://www.mcwheel.com/ explained that in Europe, wheels are designed to be somewhat malleable, which will actually INCREASE the ability of the tire to hold air pressure in event of a major hit. What they do not want on the hi speed Autobahns is a catastrophic failure at speed, sending carnage and shrapnel everywhere. Lose the wheel, save the lives. (he reapirs Porsche, M-B and BMW wheels on a regular basis, along with m/c rims).
Methinks the BMW alloy rims we ride on are much more capable than you have implied them to be.

Bikerfish,

I hardly know where to begin...

I'm not sure what think you read but I clearly described an incident that actually happened to me, personally.

You wrote: " i'm curious- is this something you have experienced, or have some other empirical info on? because i can speak from personal experience- but at "not quite" 100 mph levels."

As I stated, this DID happen. It happened to ME and it happened at 105 MPH. That is what I wrote in my post.

I said nothing about Snowflake wheels (except in passing.) I was riding on LESTER wheels and I said so.

You also wrote: "Methinks the BMW alloy rims we ride on are much more capable than you have implied them to be."

In a later post, you added: "i've also read Orbitangel's disparaging comments about BMW alloy wheels shod with tubeless tires, and felt compelled to ask about his experience with them.

WHAT disparaging comments about BMW alloy wheels? What are you talking about?

I NEVER made any disparaging remark(s) about BMW alloy wheels! Neither did I IMPLY that there is anything wrong with them.

I will admit that my experience riding on Snowflake wheels is limited.

My second RS, a 1978 model, had them. I liked them just fine but I only rode about 50K miles on those. That's not much - most MOA members ride that far before lunch.

One time I accidentally rode straight over one of those cast iron "turtles" (lane dividers) in Dallas.

I was hypothermic at that moment and reacted too slowly to avoid it. The front rim straddled that "turtle" and the rims were spread, slightly.

This happened at perhaps 10 MPH. Yes, that wheel was "malleable." The wheel might have been repairable but Perry Bushong (BMW of Ft. Worth) advised against it.

I continued to ride on it for a time (damage was pretty minor) and had it replaced for free on the wheel recall.

I always ran tubes in my Snowflakes. Anyone who prefers to run them tubeless is free to do so. I won't.

Bikerfish, I like you just fine, personally, but if you are going to attribute certain statements to me, I appreciate it if they were accurate.

 

[orbitangel]

Correction

And something else about Snowflake wheels. They are Cast Steel and freaking heavy compared to lots of other wheels of the same size. They will take a huge hit and survive much better than lots of those other wheels as well.

As to putting tubes in them, I see no reason not to. They were designed to use tubes and tube type tires. Why not stick with what they were designed to use?

Also, these bikes are very capable of speeds in excess of 100MPH. Again, they were designed for it and if kept in appropriate level on maintenance they will continue to be very capable.

Dave,

They are cast aluminum. But you knew that.

Every other statement you made is absolutely true and correct.

 

[bikerfish1100]

orbitangel-
this was your comment that made me think you were denigrating tubeless tires & rims:

"EVERYBODY rides on tubeless tires, nowadays; aren't they wonderful?

It's even better that road hazards (in our new, modern, technically advanced era) are, like the tube-type tire, now simply relics of the past. Potholes no longer exist!"

the sarcasm was thick, but the point seemed obvious that you thought tubeless were a step backward from safety.
that sure sounded like you were lauding the safety factor of tubed tires on Lesters, and seemed to be slamming the ability of tubeless to remain attached. i was asking if you had experience with tubelss going bad on a big hit, not experience on tubed staying safe (i got that part- glad you came thru it okay!).

if i read more into your post than was there- my apology.
my point was that i didn't want people coming away thinking that tubed tires were somehow miraculously superior to tubelss, when fitted to a modern rim designed to take them.

that Honda Comstar wheel was a joke.

 

[acejones]

I'm really glad I started this topic

 

[RandyB]

I'm really glad I started this topic

Riding weather will not get here soon enough. Makes me want global warming.

 

[shire2000]

orbitangel,

No, I have 5 of them in my garage right now, all of 1980/81 vintage. All of them are cast steel. One of them got badly damaged in an accident and was replaced. After the accident and replacing the damaged one, I had left it outside over a winter. It actually has rust in an area where it was broken. I know living here in the Pacific NorthWet we don't tan, we rust, but have never seen aluminum actually rust before. Plus they are heavy as hell compared to larger cast wheels from other manufacturers. Those I expect to be aluminum or some other lightweight alloy.

 

[kstoo]

Wait .....

:grouphug

krap! there isn't a smilie for that one.

I was curious so I put a magnet on a snowflake. The magnet fell off. No attraction whatsoever, just like me and good-looking red-haired women. It might be an aluminum alloy with a small amount of iron (?) or a low grade stainless or ...

When you start a thread doesn't it give you the option of making a poll out of it? I would really like to see thread polls on certain subjects so that I would know where certain people stand on certain controversies ... I'm being facetious here! But still ...

• tubed or tubeless
• factory stock or caffeinated
• park on sidestand or centerstand
• part it out or rescue it
• rescue it and face the wrath of those who think it's too much expense you fool
• paper or plastic
• credit or debit

:grouphug
Why can't we be friends? I'm going over to advrider.com old skool for awhile until it quiets down over here!! Yeah, I know that's not the way to spell skool but sheesh they is having fun!!

Like PinkKissRider says ... xoxo ... I know its not the same coming from me.

 

[crazydrummerdude]

i was asking if you had experience with tubelss going bad on a big hit, not experience on tubed staying safe (i got that part- glad you came thru it okay!).

I got that the second time I read your post. Unfortunately, I replied after only reading it once.

Regardless, good news everyone! My tires (and tubes ) for my R90 shipped..

 

[orbitangel]

Snark Chasm

orbitangel-
this was your comment that made me think you were denigrating tubeless tires & rims:

"EVERYBODY rides on tubeless tires, nowadays; aren't they wonderful?

It's even better that road hazards (in our new, modern, technically advanced era) are, like the tube-type tire, now simply relics of the past. Potholes no longer exist!"

the sarcasm was thick, but the point seemed obvious that you thought tubeless were a step backward from safety.
that sure sounded like you were lauding the safety factor of tubed tires on Lesters, and seemed to be slamming the ability of tubeless to remain attached. i was asking if you had experience with tubelss going bad on a big hit, not experience on tubed staying safe (i got that part- glad you came thru it okay!).

if i read more into your post than was there- my apology.
my point was that i didn't want people coming away thinking that tubed tires were somehow miraculously superior to tubelss, when fitted to a modern rim designed to take them.

that Honda Comstar wheel was a joke.

Bikerfish,

You commented:

a. "the sarcasm was thick, but the point seemed obvious that ..."

b. "...you thought tubeless were a step backward from safety."

On your first point, I'll have to give credit where credit is due.

Yes, the sarcasm was thick - it was INTENDED to be a good-natured sarcasm but I can see how it could have been seen as a snarky, spiteful kind of sarcasm.

I did not INTEND for it to come off that way. If the language was offensive, I apologize for my ability to generate sarcasm.

On your second point: A step backward from safety?

I have no hard data on this (maybe the NHTSA has such data - I don't know.)

What I believe I DO know is this. MODERN motorcycles are carefully designed to maximize performance and reduce weight.

Given modern design tools, engineers are able to pare structural elements down to bare minimums.

There is nothing wrong with this; it is how they achieve the exceptional performance, low unsprung weight, amazing handling and braking.

Motorcycles no longer drag around the excess structure (weight) they once had - when the HAD to be overdesigned to achieve adequate structural margins.

If you're talking about street bikes, they are designed to run on relatively smooth roads. I am sure there are margins there for the "unexpected."

I'd be pretty surprised if they were designed to withstand riding them directly into a sharp, NINE INCH, concrete step, at speeds exceeding 100 MPH.

Neither was my old R100RS! But it was overdesigned (i.e. too heavy.)

The bike was damaged. I don't know whether you'd call it SERIOUS damage but it required a new subframe, new swingarm, new rear axle, and 2 new wheels which, in my case were Lesters. BMW Snowflake wheels would likely have survived but would have been junk, just like my Lesters were.

If I had been riding on spoked wheels, I believe the spokes would have not only punctured both tubes but that the (spoked) wheels also would have collapsed since (unlike the Lesters or Snowflakes) those spokes can't absorb any compression loads. That would have been UGLY.

The MAIN point is this: If one or both of your tires suddenly deflate at 100 MPH or better, you are pretty damned unlikely to remain upright. Your chances of staying up are virtually zero.

The TUBES were the ONLY thing which prevented this scenario on my bike, that day.

You could probably survive a spill at that speed (if you were lucky) but you won't if you are surrounded by heavy, high speed truck traffic when you go down.

Your final point:

c. "...my point was that i didn't want people coming away thinking that tubed tires were somehow miraculously superior to tubelss, when fitted to a modern rim designed to take them."

You are quite right. Tubed tires are NOT miraculously superior to tubeless tires, when fitted to a modern rim, designed to take them.

But I'll wager that you can ride any modern BMW (or any other make) into that same "road hazard" that I hit, and both (tubeless) tires will instantly deflate.

In all probability, you will NEVER encounter such a situation - I hope you don't!

But you SHOULD know your risks. There are NO guarantees!

Look, I'm not here to rag on anybody, nor to denigrate anybody's bike, nor to pick a fight.

I simply answered a question about "tubes vs tubeless."

I do NOT claim to know all the answers. But I DO have a point to make, if anyone is listening.

Thanks for your input, everybody and this is (I promise) my final word on the matter.

 

[YOCKYRIDES]

Carry a tube

Learned my leasson through experience. Was stranded by a flat tire one beautiful Sunday, July 3, in rural upstate New York. A wonderful couple took me in for the night and drove me 30 miles to a general store the next day (July 4) so that I could pick up the 18 inch tube I needed to keep riding. That happened on a Kawasaki KZ440 but it could have been any bike.

Several years later, I stopped to help an elderly couple change a tire on I-90. They drove off relieved and then I pulled out after them and took a nail in my rear sidewall. This time I had a tube.

Summer 2001 riding on the Blue Ridge Parkway just north of Asheville, I was was flagged down by a biker (term used intentionally) whose buddies were stuck a few miles north with a flat. Their first ever long distance ride, 4 bikes, not a tool or tube between them. They were slack jawed as I produced a tube (lucky it was same size they needed), my tool kit, the stubby Beemer air pump, some Calgon hand soap, and rags. Turned down the money offered. Told them to pass along the kindness. My risk was riding back home without the spare tube. But hey, I've only had 7 or so flats in 28 years.

Carrying a tube makes sense.