Wheels/Tubes

[BRICKRIDER]

Thanks; that does make sense, although one must wonder why the
german genius engineers failed to design a proper rim.

They did - for later model bikes. The German engineers are slower to bring about changes into the marketplace, as in the case of tubeless tire rims; the idea being that more of the bugs are worked out before the consumer starts using them. (That's the theory, anyway.)

The tube/tubeless subject has been beaten to death. The bottom line is that it is a safety issue. The rim can be run without a tube. I did in the 80s, but am not proud of it, and would not do it again, especially armed with current knowledge.

You have a 1980s technology bike, and the safest means to keep the rubber side down is to use it as designed.

Yes, I know tubes are a hassle. That's part of the nostalgia. If you really desire a bike with tubeless tires, best bet is to sell that bike and move up to a newer model in the technology food chain.

Ride Safely,
BrickRider

 

[20774]

I hadn't kept up with the later run of Airhead bikes and found out recently that they have spoke rims that run tubeless....I think the GS series did as well as the 1200C..probably others. I saw those rims at a dealer and thought that made a lot of sense.

 

[bikerfish1100]

I hadn't kept up with the later run of Airhead bikes and found out recently that they have spoke rims that run tubeless....I think the GS series did as well as the 1200C..probably others. I saw those rims at a dealer and thought that made a lot of sense.

spoked rims that run tubeless was first developed for the GS serives bikes- with the idea being that a spoked rim is preferable/lighter in the dirt over a cast wheel. the dirving force was the advent and proliferation of tubeless tires, with the concommittant decline of tubed tire options.

but running tubes in tires that are mounted on rims designed to run tubed tires is the only intelligent course of action.
why didn't BMW have tubeless rims in '83? tire technology hadn't advanced to the degree that would necessitate those changes.

interetingly, many of the advances in modern m/c suspension, braking and chassis development had to wait until tire technology had advanced to such a degree to support the other changes. things don't happen in a vacuum!

 

[lkchris]

Thanks; that does make sense, although one must wonder why the
german genius engineers failed to design a proper rim.

The rim is "proper" for using tubes. The bikes came from the factory with tubes. Any more questions?

Are tubes a hassle? Try fixing a tubeless flat on the road before you answer.

 

[acejones]

Back in my previous life I was a service manager for two automobile dealers (Honda) and (British Leyland, Fiat) and managed a foreign car parts distributor in the early 70's. I understand about the progress of technology. In 1983 when this bike was built, there were about a billion automobiles riding around on tubeless tires. The motorcycle engineers were probably using rotary dial phones and party lines at that point. They should have walked across the parking lot to see what their automotive brothers were doing.

 

[orbitangel]

Tubes or Tubeless

Excuse my ignorance again. I just acquired a '83R80RT with snowflake wheels. It has new Michelins on it and has tubes in the tires. Is there any good reason to run tubes in an alloy wheel ?

AJ

Oh, boy! here we go again!

Let me relate an experience I had back in 1979, on my FIRST '77 R100RS. That bike (as my current one does) had Lester wheels. (They could just as easily have been Snowflake wheels, as my next RS had.)

I will spare you many of the annoying details but here's the bottom line:

At dusk, on an old, CONCRETE State highway in Oklahoma, 4th of July (as in HOT) I drove through a giant "pothole" at 105 MPH, right after I had just passed two fully-loaded wheat harvest trucks (semis) which were doing about 85 MPH.

That old concrete road had been patched, thousands of times, with asphalt.

Some of those soft, gooey patches had been beaten down by the harvest truck traffic.

One of those patches was about 15 feet long (along the length of the highway) and about two feet wide. It was like a very gradual "ramp" which ended with a sharp, NINE INCH step of jagged concrete.

This particular "patch" didn't look any different (at dusk) than the countless other dark smudges on the light colored road.

I never knew what hit me (what I hit, actually.)

It felt like I had just ridden through an invisible brick wall. The impact was just UNBELIEVABLE!

The impact was so violent that it tore those little RS bars right out of my hands.

I found myself in a tank slapper at 105 MPH with my hands OFF the bars, engine off and coasting on two VERY lumpy wheels, two 86,000 pound trucks coming-up behind me at 85 MPH. Not an altogether desirable situation.

I grabbed the bars firmly and the bike snapped out of the wobble (I was VERY glad that I had the damper set on "2") and continued to coast, feeling that I was riding on two square wheels. I had NO IDEA why the engine had quit.

I coasted to a stop on the narrow shoulder, wondering what the HELL had just happened, just as those two trucks went whizzing right by. They has no idea whatsoever that I had encountered a "problem."

Time to take stock. The damage: Two Lester wheels severely bent (enough to crack both front and rear rims.) Rear axle bent at L/H axle bearing, subframe buckled at L/H upper shock mount.

The engine had quit because my right thumb had brushed across the kill switch as the bars came out of my hands.

BOTH tires remained inflated!!!

Had I been riding on tubeless tires, I'd have become hamburger that day. Period. No ifs, ands or buts.

New Hondas of the era all came fitted with tubeless tires. Do you suspect that I would have preferred to do this on a Honda? If you do, you'd be wrong.

Tubeless tires may be the latest and greatest - low unsprung weight doesn't mean much when you are trying to ride on two flat tires at the Century mark.

I rode 40 more miles home on those bent rims - not too pleased but alive.

You are welcome to run those Snowflake wheels tubless, if you think that is better. I won't!

BTW two other BMWs (ahead of me) hit that too (at much lower speeds) and both were damaged. One of those riders had the wind knocked out of him by his Elephantboy tank bag.

I have had many, MANY close calls on motorcycles, some of them were pretty scary. Not one of them ever came close to this particular incident and I was real skittish for many months after it happened.

We report; You decide!

 

[108625]

Back in my previous life I was a service manager for two automobile dealers (Honda) and (British Leyland, Fiat) and managed a foreign car parts distributor in the early 70's. I understand about the progress of technology. In 1983 when this bike was built, there were about a billion automobiles riding around on tubeless tires. The motorcycle engineers were probably using rotary dial phones and party lines at that point. They should have walked across the parking lot to see what their automotive brothers were doing.

While they were at it, they should have asked how the all the car guys in the world can get a dry clutch to slide back and forth on input shaft splines without relubing it

 

[acejones]

While they were at it, they should have asked how the all the car guys in the world can get a dry clutch to slide back and forth on input shaft splines without relubing it

Another interesting point.

 

[JeffMunn]

spoked rims that run tubeless was first developed for the GS serives bikes- with the idea being that a spoked rim is preferable/lighter in the dirt over a cast wheel. the dirving force was the advent and proliferation of tubeless tires, with the concommittant decline of tubed tire options.

I might beg to differ on the reason for spoked rims over cast rims for the GS series. Lightness might have been one of many reasons, but the ablility to absorb sustained and recurring shocks without metal fatigue and subsequent failure is most likely the main reason. That is why you will never see cast rims on true dual purpose bikes, and most serious adventure touring companies will not accept a rider on a bike with cast rims. Spoked wheels have a give and flex that cast rims will never offer. Cast rims are for street use. Spoked rims can do both on and off pavement.

In spite of the wonderful design of the GS spoked tubeless rims, I've always carried tubes on my long range trips. Believe it or not, there are things that will poke a hole in a tire that a plug can't fill. And it you are a long way from home, that tube will help get you back when your plug kit fails and AAA won't come get you.

jeff

 

[orbitangel]

Tubular Tubes in Tires

Another interesting point. (RE: spline lubes)

Ace,

I can see that my argument for tubes was a persuasive one...

Not to worry. Something like that could never happen to you.

 

[acejones]

Orbitangel,
Don't know what your problem is. I understand and agree with the points that were made about the need for tubes. I still think that in many instances the German engineers have been slow to adapt to technology advances. I like my BMW's, but I don't think the Germans have a "lock" on doing everything the best way.
All I did was ask a simple question in order to understand the purpose and application of something.

 

[orbitangel]

No Problem, Dude!

Orbitangel,
Don't know what your problem is. I understand and agree with the points that were made about the need for tubes. I still think that in many instances the German engineers have been slow to adapt to technology advances. I like my BMW's, but I don't think the Germans have a "lock" on doing everything the best way.
All I did was ask a simple question in order to understand the purpose and application of something.

Ace, my good man! I have no problem whatsoever with you. I am not here to defend German engineers, Japanese engineers, Italian engineers nor any OTHER engineers.

Besides, the engineering we are talking about was on the market thirty years ago.

The new, shiny, technically advanced (in its day) Honda CX-500 I had came from the factory (in 1978) with tubeless tires installed. Weren't they just GREAT?

If I had been unfortunate enough to have been on my Honda, the day I hit that pothole, I would now be (almost) thirty years in my grave.

EVERYBODY rides on tubeless tires, nowadays; aren't they wonderful?

It's even better that road hazards (in our new, modern, technically advanced era) are, like the tube-type tire, now simply relics of the past. Potholes no longer exist!

AJ, you are free to sift through all the data, and make your own decisions on what is important an what to ignore. You will still be my friend in either case.

I do feel obligated to report what facts I have gleaned over time, in hopes that someone might benefit from hearing about what very nearly took me out.

BTW, if somebody will please be kind enough to explain to me what kind of superior riding technique I can employ when both my tires suddenly go flat at 100 MPH, I will be very happy to listen, and to implement when that day comes.

No hard feelings at all, Ace. We are still pals, right?

 

[crazydrummerdude]

Orbitangel, I think I've read your story before. But, man.. I don't know if I could have come out of that alive.

 

[acejones]

Fair enough Orbitangel; we're still friends. However, I don't know if going 100mph on these things is a good idea. Just me.

I will be asking more questions and, of course, questioning answers. again, it's just my nature.

 

[bikerfish1100]

Orbitangel- i've read your comments on the dangers of tubeless tires, and how they will leave you flat.
but i'm curious- is this something you have experienced, or have some other empirical info on? because i can speak from personal experience- but at "not quite" 100 mph levels.
I hit a cutaway around a manhole in the center of the road at around 40 (my bad, i was talking to my cousin on the back, as we went to DMV to do the paperwork on his purchase of my K75). Smacked hard going in, and again going out of it- probably a 6" lip or so on each side. Checked the rims, nothing too obvious, tires did fine. Ended up denting both rims enough so that i needd to have them straightened (even the rear ding induced a shimmy at around 45 mph)- but tires held fine, never lost air. Not sure what would happen at higher speeds.
The guy who repaired them for me http://www.mcwheel.com/ explained that in Europe, wheels are designed to be somewhat malleable, which will actually INCREASE the ability of the tire to hold air pressure in event of a major hit. What they do not want on the hi speed Autobahns is a catastrophic failure at speed, sending carnage and shrapnel everywhere. Lose the wheel, save the lives. (he reapirs Porsche, M-B and BMW wheels on a regular basis, along with m/c rims).
Methinks the BMW alloy rims we ride on are much more capable than you have implied them to be.

 

[krehmkej]

Mcwheel ironed a dent out of my front snowflake rim. No problemo. Came out perfect.

 

[crazydrummerdude]

but i'm curious- is this something you have experienced

Did you miss his post on post #9 of this thread? Compelling stuff.

 

[shire2000]

And something else about Snowflake wheels. They are Cast Steel and freaking heavy compared to lots of other wheels of the same size. They will take a huge hit and survive much better than lots of those other wheels as well.

As to putting tubes in them, I see no reason not to. They were designed to use tubes and tube type tires. Why not stick with what they were designed to use?

Also, these bikes are very capable of speeds in excess of 100MPH. Again, they were designed for it and if kept in appropriate level on maintenance they will continue to be very capable.

 

[bikerfish1100]

Did you miss his post on post #9 of this thread? Compelling stuff.

no, I read his posts, including the fractured bike incident. i've also read Orbitangel's disparaging comments about BMW alloy wheels shod with tubeless tires, and felt compelled to ask about his experience with them.

 

[535IS]

no, I read his posts, including the fractured bike incident. i've also read Orbitangel's disparaging comments about BMW alloy wheels shod with tubeless tires, and felt compelled to ask about his experience with them.