What has happened to BMW?

[angysdad]

I am mechanically challenged. I ride older bikes, so for me having a realiable shop is very important. I stopped using dealers about 15yrs ago. Although I have two dealers within an hours ride, I do a 3hr (round trip) ride to a one-man operation. He (Jean-Guy) is a BMW trained mechanic whom I met at a now defunct BMW dealership. I get to have a `mechanic, and not a `technician`work on my bikes.

As for FD problems, I rode an R100GS/PD (two actually) for 19yrs. I replaced the drive shaft once on each of them, one after a failure and the other preventative. I never met anyone with an airhead GS with more then 50k on the odometer who had not replaced the driveshaft. BMW never acknowledged a problem with the shaft.

 

[thx1158]

Well, that does it.

After reading this whole thread, I'm just going to sell both my BMW's. Maybe buy a rocking chair.
Obviously BMW's are not worth owning.
460

My original post said nothing about BMW's not being worth owning. What I was wondering aloud is what has happened over the years in terms of the manufacture of the machines and the supporting dealer network. I have noticed a slight decline in quality, and a HUGE decline in dealer service.

A lot of posts proclaimed that one should "do it yourself". I agree but, while my bike is under warranty, I'd rather continue a positive relationship with my dealer. My major issue was the cost of a service that was improperly preformed. I have lost faith in the ability of my local shop. I am unwilling for a number of reasons to have to take multiple days off in order to transport my bike elsewhere. This is my choice and I totally understand that.

Other manufactures are stepping up to fill in need I have for a GS type bike. I wouldn't be so quick as to dismiss the pull of the current GS rider to another make. This was never intened to be a slam on BMW, and if I do move to another Bike..it wont deminish my feelings for BMW.

 

[36654]

A lot of posts proclaimed that one should "do it yourself". I agree but, while my bike is under warranty, I'd rather continue a positive relationship with my dealer. My major issue was the cost of a service that was improperly preformed. I have lost faith in the ability of my local shop. I am unwilling for a number of reasons to have to take multiple days off in order to transport my bike elsewhere. This is my choice and I totally understand that.

RW,

I don't understand why you feel the need to be apologetic; In your opinion, you're not getting adequate service for the amount being paid. At this point, it's an issue between you and BMW NA. Considering the service rates authorized by BMW NA, you are justified in expecting correctly performed service. I know my last routine service (over $1000) caused me to rethink a lot of things about the bike and it's place on my financial ladder of priorities. However, the dealership does seem to be working with you, on issues that are more desgin/build quality (the brake rotors) issues.

Yes, you can do the work yourself, but do you really have time to master all the info and collect the tools/equipment to do the various repairs? Especially, the electrics , electronics and computer systems? If BMW isn't interested in keeping you happy and other companies' are, you would be slightly irrational not to share your wealth with those other companies.

You never know, one of those other companies and their products might be a much better fit for you. If so, you'll be a happier rider. There are lots of good products out there and we are all different.

I wish you luck.

 

[BUDDINGGEEZER]

Google 'German auto reliability' and you will find that German vehicles aren't very reliable. It's a fact. Kias score higher than German cars.

BMW autos are well down the reliability list. I have a friend that is a Porsche mechanic. He says there is a saying "Don't own a German car out of warranty."
He told a buddy of his that if the Porsche 911 his buddy wanted to buy was going to be his only car to go buy a Corvette. The 911 would spend more time in the shop.

It seems that every new BMW bike has a recall of some sort or another.

But damn, there is a huge COOL factor with German vehicles. In this country German cars and BMW motorcycles are considered prestigious vehicles. Less dealerships make them more exclusive. You can't buy a BMW on every street corner. Most Beemer owners wouldn't want one if you could.

Which has more cool a BMW or a Kia? The Kia doesn't break as ofter, butttttttttt.

With the huge COOL factor comes a price. Fewer dealers and less reliability is that price.

Simple as that.

Ralph Sims

 

[rocketman]

IÔÇÖm not at all sure its really ÔÇ£just that simpleÔÇØ. (in fact IÔÇÖve found such things rarely are!).
After looking at some of the reports google turns up it seems that its not so much a matter of a drop in German car reliably per se, as it is a matter of a decline in comparison to other brands. That is a whole other kettle of fish. From one of several hits on the issue..

ÔÇ£For one, they say itÔÇÖs not necessarily just a case of German cars becoming less reliable. ItÔÇÖs that they are comparatively less reliable than their Japanese competitors, who have raised the bar with some models going up to five years without any trouble.

ÔÇ£The competitors are getting more reliable, rather than Germans getting less reliable,ÔÇØ Graham Whyte, an editor at UK-based newcarnet.co.uk, an online guide to new cars, told DW-WORLD.ÔÇØ

That puts it in quite a different light.

And as often the case after looking at a number of different sites, I noted many refer back to the same three or so studies; so while the sheer number of hits might seem to indicate a rather large drop in German car reliability; even a quick comparison of where the data was gathered from for the individual siteÔÇÖs analysis/article or conclusion, shows that to be a somewhat dubious conclusion. This is not to say that there is NO drop in reliability but simply that as is often the case with GooglingÔÇØ for data, it can often lead to a distorted picture. Just as I suspect that is the a part of the reason one might conclude that ÔÇ£It seems that every new BMW bike has a recall of some sort or another.ÔÇØ The key work being seems. Again, there is some basis for this and certainly as systems become more complex there is an increasing chance of some problems arising but when taken as a percentage of units built or in comparisons to other makes, it becomes something less (often much much less) than what at first seemed to be the case.

As I've said before, this is why I now often refer to the net as the "(MIS)-information Highway!"

RM

 

[moezilla]

As with any medium, if you look hard enough, you will find something that helps validate your world view. It's just easier to do today because of the internet.

Speaking from personal experience though, German cars are less reliable, and I think this has been true for quite some time. The Honda accord that I sold to buy the Bimmer had right at 200,000 miles on it, and never needed anything other than routine maintenance and tires. The BMW on the other hand, is on it's second transmission in less than 100K, and has never gone more than two months without a sensor or control of some kind crapping out, and the parts are very expensive. For every problem I've had with the car, I was able to find a description of it under "they all do this" on a dedicated BMW car forum website.

I've owned several BMW bikes, and put at least 50K miles on each one. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones, in that I've never had an FD failure or any other kind of catastrophic failure. I'll probably keep riding BMW's until a competitor comes out with a bike that does everything my RT does, as well as it does, for less money. In the end, it will probably be the little BS "they all do this" things like failing fuel gauge strips, warped rotors, EWS rings and etc. that are so darned expensive to repair out of warranty that sends me back to Japanese bikes.

This spring, I was in lust for a new dual sport, and had zeroed in on an F800GS. I loved the looks of the bike, and a test ride confirmed that it fit me well and the performance was great. I was ready to hand over my cash, but after reading all the horror stories on the various forums about the spate of rear wheel bearing failures and split gas tanks, I ended up buying a new KLR650 instead. It may not be as sexy looking, but I can buy three brand new KLR's for the price of one F800, and there are very few reliability complaints to be found on the forums (yeah, I've read about the "Doo-hickey").

So...my long and rambling point is that yes, the internet can seem to make mountains out of mole hills, but it is still a fantastic research tool for the consumer. As one poster pointed out, BMW missed an opportunity to step up and get some good PR by managing the problem as soon as it was known, but didn't. I think that companies are going to have to get savvy to how quickly they can have their carefully honed image soiled, and possibly start reacting differently to consumer complaints or suffer the consequences...and that would be a good thing for all of us.

 

[thx1158]

I'll probably keep riding BMW's until a competitor comes out with a bike that does everything my RT does, as well as it does, for less money. In the end, it will probably be the little BS "they all do this" things like failing fuel gauge strips, warped rotors, EWS rings and etc. that are so darned expensive to repair out of warranty that sends me back to Japanese bikes.

Well I've had all of those "they all do that" things fail...some on multiple occasions. I'm still waiting for my GS to be repaired now going on over one month in the shop. Its a shame that BMW isn't pushing to correct these common failures. Now that Yamaha is exploring the North American waters with the S10, I have an option with a wide dealer support network where ever I roam.

I had minor issues with my other BMW's (R1100R, R1200RS, R1200C, R1200GT, and RT1150RT) but nothing like with this GS. Its disheartening because of all the bikes I have owned the GS is my favorite. I love BMW, I just cant trust that they will take care of me when it fails, or trust that I'm going to be able to get support (parts or what ever in the middle of nowhere) based on the contracting and increasingly shoddy dealer network.

 

[Rinty]

...the 911 would spend more time in the shop...buddinggeezer

A small percentage of 911s from 1999 to about 2007 are subject to catastrophic engine failures from failing seals on the intermediate shaft. Preventative fixes have been developed by the aftermarket, and cost about $2,000. Each of the prior series of 911s have lesser issues (valve guides, mainly) which are well known, and remediable.

But by and large, they're well built, reliable cars.

When I read about BMW final drive failures, I have a different perspective...

 

[rocketman]

As with any medium, if you look hard enough, you will find something that helps validate your world view. It's just easier to do today because of the internet.

--snipage--

Exactly, and there in lies the rub, people often search the net looking to validate their pre-conceptions rather than simply looking for data from which to arrive at a conclusion; which unfortunately is compounded by the fact that sites such as google and bing are themselves "biased" because their databases are in turn "weighted" in as much as they are not simply catalogs of sites or information on a particular subject. In fact there is a whole business built around the ability to build sites and keywords to help ensure that any particular site(s) are pushed to the top of the stack. But thats getting into a whole other subject area.

RM

 

[globalrider]

Sorry for the rant...just frustrated.

After reading all of that, I'm glad I don't have to deal with servicing at a dealer, be it for my BMW or Kawasaki motorcycle or my four-wheeled Honda or Porsche.

I've noticed that very few people can analyze/troubleshoot a problem. Everything is just plug 'n play...exchange parts till the problem goes away.

 

[globalrider]

The Honda accord that I sold to buy the Bimmer had right at 200,000 miles on it, and never needed anything other than routine maintenance and tires.

Somehow I doubt it didn't need a ball joint or other movable part in that time. I have a Honda CR-V; reliable but wear items have been replaced in 120,000 miles.

 

[globalrider]

Motorcycle dealers (other than BMW) are not doing well either, and many are closing their doors.

Considering the tough economic times; not surprising as motorcycles are usually a toy in our society. Percentage-wise few owners have one as their sole means of transportation. Now if gas ran at $10 a gallon as it does in Europe, motorcycles might be viewed differently.

 

[Anyname]

I have been buying used BMW cars and driving them until they have very high mileages for about twelve years. They have been cheaper to run than the piece of s**t 93 Honda Accord I had before that. I do maintain my cars well, but have had very little by way of reliability issues.

Perhaps as important as reliability, all of the features of the BMWs have worked well. On the Honda, the windshield defroster would only melt ice on the bottom half of the windshield, the car continually jumped out of first gear and the anti-lock brakes caused uncontrollable skids when they engaged. There were also reliability issues with the exhaust system (BMW uses stainless steel and, although we have driven some cars 240,000 miles, we have never replaced an OEM BMW exhaust) and wheel bearings.

 

[aaaaaa]

After almost two decades on BMW's, I have just about had it with the Marque. The dealer network has shrunk and most of the "good" dealers are gone, the ones that are left hire hack techs who worry about beating the clock for service instead of doing it correctly ($675 service bill and couldn't even correctly fill the oil). My GS is in now for warranty repairs on the fuel sensor and warped front disk (2nd time and I had to fight to have this fixed "within spec"....right!). To the dealer's credit...they said they would fix it rather than loose me as a customer, so I guess years of dealer loyalty paid off in this case. I'm seriously thinking of jumping ship. Sorry for the rant...just frustrated.

Jump? Where to? Sorry I've been there done that. Ride what you enjoy most.
vegasRob

 

[stevent]

In my experience the most reliable bikes I've owned were new Triumphs and newer Harley-Davidson's. I've put a combined total of well over 100k on them with minimal issues.

 

[thx1158]

Well the GS is history. I wish her well. I pulled the trigger today on the Yamaha after picking the GS up after the latest round of repairs. It sat around this time for a month gathering dust awaiting parts. I got a fair deal all around on the transaction and a big discount on the parts package Yamaha is offering with the purchase. Now I'm going to look for a used R1200R that I can work on and ride locally, setting up the Tenere as my Rally/LD bike.

 

[36654]

Well the GS is history. I wish her well. I pulled the trigger today on the Yamaha after picking the GS up after the latest round of repairs. It sat around this time for a month gathering dust awaiting parts. I got a fair deal all around on the transaction and a big discount on the parts package Yamaha is offering with the purchase. Now I'm going to look for a used R1200R that I can work on and ride locally, setting up the Tenere as my Rally/LD bike.

RW,

Check out craiglist. There's couple of interesting offerings in the Harrisburg area.

Best of luck with the Tenere.

 

[thx1158]

RW,

Check out craiglist. There's couple of interesting offerings in the Harrisburg area.

Best of luck with the Tenere.

Thanks....I'm planning to look over the winter. They are not shipping the bikes till May and they are build to order only...none direct to dealers, so finding an older roadster would make a great winter project.

 

[36654]

Thanks....I'm planning to look over the winter. They are not shipping the bikes till May and they are build to order only...none direct to dealers, so finding an older roadster would make a great winter project.

Today I was bouncing around the web and checked the "blue book" price of my 1999 R11RS...................it was only $3000, but does everything I could ever want it to do. That really makes you rethink the idea of buying new.

Now, if I could only convince my wife that my 1989 car, without air bags, is safe........

 

[de Razendebol]

nothing happened to BMW

customer satisfaction is not acomplished by having a BMW logo on your front door, select your dealer care full
we see more and more combination dealers Triumph,Ducti,BMW that says it all.

FD failure well just check your bike for every season as you will do with a chain driven bike.
after some offroading you will take off your chain and wash it out.
a bit off riding once every 2 year a new chain.

and reading some blogs from otherbrand dealers will give you a good indication off what is going on now those days, nonetheless a bad experience sucks good luck.

Boxers; hate them or love them