What has happened to BMW?

[beemerdons]

Actually have high praise for the BMW Dealers I deal with locally in AZ; Great Shops!

+1 to that! No mater who it was: Jeep, Subaru, Honda... I've never taken them to the dealer for parts or service unless it's a recall.

My complaint has never been with my Arizona BMW Dealers, Fantastic shops here in AZ

Marty Cohen of Iron Horse BMW in Tucson repaired final drive on my R1100GS; Marty's now retired, but new Owner John C. and his mechanics still do fantastic BMW repairs.

Quality Cycle Service in Mesa is owned by fellow BMW AZ Beemers Club #89 Member Dave Alquist and Dave repaired final drive on my R1150RT; Quality's an Independent.

BMW Motorcycles Scottsdale, AZ is a class act, Service Dept. Managed by Louie Franconi

No, my gripe has never been with BMW Shops; just Factory Built Defective Final Drives.

 

[thx1158]

Be Careful on your way out the door, it has a strong spring.

Why cant a member vent frustration with a reference like this one? I may take your advice about the spring, but this is more a case of quality/dealer issues "pushing" one out door rather reluctantly. I think the title of my post was "what happened to BMW" not BMW sucks

 

[88bmwjeff]

There are good dealerships and bad dealerships out there. I don't think it's appropriate to lump all dealerships. I've gotten some pretty damn good service at dealerships, but I've also gotten some pretty lousy service at dealers as well. This is a bit off topic, but I will not buy a VW, Nissan or a Saab because the local dealer here is terrible. That says nothing about VW, Nissan or Saab or any other dealers. Just that the local dealer sucks. That being said the local independent shop where I take my cars is actually more expensive than the dealer, but they get it done right and are willing to admit when they make a mistake and correct it.

Now if you can't find a good dealer or mechanic to work on your BMW, then yeah I would say changing to a different brand might be appropriate. But, don't blame BMW. It's the local dealer or lack there of.

OK, I'm off my soap box.

 

[stevent]

I've never heard any complaints about the two main local dealerships, Ride West in Seattle and South Sound in Tacoma. I've dealt with Ride West in particular off and on since it was Gregs Greenlake Cycle in the early 80's and South Sound since the old Tacoma BMW days with no problems. Guess I'm just lucky. Try getting any kind of satisfaction at a Japanese brand dealership, fine to buy from but you really don't want them working on your complex new electronics.

 

[sit]

Whats wrong with BMW? I don't think much of anything is. They are showing growth and they are developing new fancy bikes with gizmos on them we seem to want. Sure they may have some quality control issues, but the more complex things are the greater the chance they will break. Now as for the dealers, yes I too think they could stand to take some classes on customer service etc and BMW could "police" the dealers more to try to bold them to the BMW standard. But remember the dealer is not BMW. I think customer service is down across the board in most service industries. Every time I have dealt directly with BMW they have been great.

 

[Astrin]

For what it's worth, I've only heard good things about the three Wisconsin BMW dealers, and I've had excellent service and treatment from the two I've dealt with, Mischler's and Milwaukee. I wouldn't hesitate to take my bike to either.

 

[05K1200S]

I too think there is nothing wrong with BMW. Heck there is proven less than 2% failuers of RD's. Its just that you seldom hear from anybody on the internet when their bike runns fine or dos'nt have FD problems. Only when it broke. Everyone likes to bi#*% to someone once in a while and thats fine. Just go out and ride after your done. These machines ARE Made by flawed humans S*&% happens just be gratefull you CAN complain without getting thrown in jail! Or worse shot.
Just sayin"

I'd like to see how you would handle the multiple FD falures like some owners have had.
My bike has repeated fuel level sensor failures (4 so far)... But then again this is all new technology, just like the final drives, so maybe I should just be patient with BMW.
Maybe you've just been very lucky

 

[sit]

My GS had a quirky fuel strip in it, got if fixed a few times, that helped, just doubled checked it using the trip odometer, heck at least it had a fuel gauge, my 1150R didn't. My LT is currently in the shop having its final drive pulled, 28K miles on the clock ( bought used with 22K). Seals are leaking at the very least. Is this a final drive failure, I don't think so, I think its crappy seals. Now if the bearings are going etc, then yes a FD failure and it will be a bummer, but I will get it fixed, and ride happily away. If it is a full blown failure, sure, I plan on writing a letter to BMW to express my disappointment, but not to bitch or anything like that. I plan on equating the FD failure to a differential going out on one of their cars and how I don't think that would be acceptable to them and it should not be acceptable with a bike either.

 

[gertiektn]

my pressing question is

So Mr Beemerdon.... what was the mileage rolled on to the two failure bikes

It is just not all that simple...if you had failures at low miles then it was a manufacturing defect for sure. If it happened at 100K+ then I would ask???
How was it maintained? How was it ridden?

In my experience I have seen great gear trashed in a short time by sloppy or rough technick. Some folks really hammer stuff.. and others are way to easy..
Now I am not making accusations, I am just asking the question.

What is your riding style? Did you maintain it? As indications of failure manifested themselves, did you pay attention and try to minimize the damage before failure?

Now, I will accept that the bikes may have been built on hangover monday and you got unlucky... but two failures?

I like shaftdrives.. and I am not in attack mode, just curious.

jim

 

[mpmarty]

I'm fortunate. My 06 RT has been dead on reliable. Living in rural Oregon we are blessed with some great BMW dealers, two within an hours ride of me and a third further north in the Portland area. The only other dealer I've had experience with was Sierra BMW in Sparks Nevada and they were great people and a true pleasure to deal with when I hit an antelope (actually a pronghorn) in central Nevada.

 

[pffog]

The lack of dealers IS a problem, luckily I have one close for parts, but in 44k, bike has never been back.

It does effect sales, I would think twice before traveling 100 miles to a dealer, especially if I relied on them to do service, it would be a deal breaker.

The shutting down of small mom and pop dealers started in the auto industry in the 80's and never made sense to me, they started to force out dealers by requiring elaborate showrooms, XX square footage of parts and service area, exclusive showrooms etc, this drove out many of the rural dealers that offered REAL service and sold lots of cars because people LIKED doing business with them. MC companies have done the same. I feel that it has cost the companies millions in sales.

And when the ship hit the fan in the auto industry a couple years ago, what did Chrysler and GM do, close INDEPENDENT dealers, many that were highly profitable, and family owned for years, just seemed stupid to me.

But I bought more Ford stock, and all I can say is thanks to those misguided corporate experts.

 

[beemerdons]

The BMW final drive is my one and only complaint about BMW's-Love everything else BMW

Good Morning Jim,

Certainly a fair question and I do not suspect any attack mode, at all. Both final drives failed with less than 50K miles on them. I am 62 years old and have been riding since I was 15, I have never been a "wild man" rider during this time and now that I am on Social Security, I am especially a genteel and mature rider.

Both failures exhibited no prior indications of impending failure. Both times it felt like I was getting a flat tire at speed while riding down the road, shaking rear end.

The RT final drive failed here in Arizona and I was able to limp it to the Mesa shop.

GS failure was more of a problem. I was on Mexico Route 15 South of Magdalena in the State of Sonora. I hired a Mexican farmer to put my GS in the back of his pickup and drive me to US border crossing at Nogales, AZ and then pushed it over!

All maintenance was done by the purchasing BMW dealers during warranty and by myself after that. Note, after repairs, the bikes are still running fine and still are racking up the miles. Proves to me this was a factory built defect, not service!!

I do not want to sound anti-BMW, my 1966 R60/2, my 1974 R90S and my 1986 BMW R80RT were outstanding machines, never once had a breakdown on them.

And, I do love everything about my 1996 and 2005 Type 259 BMW's, except FD's!!

I'm very active on www.fjrforum.com and there has never been a single failure of a final drive on an FJR, many Club Members have 200K+ bikes on wwwFJR Forum

As a long time BMW fanatic, joined MOA in 1979, it just bothers me about the FD'S!

Sincerely Yours, Don Stanley, Chandler, AZ beemerdons@aol.com 480-440-4666

So Mr Beemerdon.... what was the mileage rolled on to the two failure bikes

It is just not all that simple...if you had failures at low miles then it was a manufacturing defect for sure. If it happened at 100K+ then I would ask???
How was it maintained? How was it ridden?

In my experience I have seen great gear trashed in a short time by sloppy or rough technick. Some folks really hammer stuff.. and others are way to easy..
Now I am not making accusations, I am just asking the question.

What is your riding style? Did you maintain it? As indications of failure manifested themselves, did you pay attention and try to minimize the damage before failure?

Now, I will accept that the bikes may have been built on hangover monday and you got unlucky... but two failures?

I like shaftdrives.. and I am not in attack mode, just curious.

jim

 

[Tooth]

Bmw ducati and triumph

This seems to be a new occurance in the motorcycle world. THe combination of these three bikes under the same roof. I have a triumph and have not had to have dealer work in a while but......I wonder if I am paying those wonderful $$/hr charges as the BMW ....I am sure.

There is no excuse in the world for shaft failures on a BMW....period. Hey guys spend less time in the R&D room and more time on perfecting a product.

 

[pmdave]

Over the years I have always done my own maintenance and repair, whatever the problem. I used to work on my cars, too, but since my local Toyota dealer can do everything right, within a reasonable time, I take our cars in for service. With an airhead, most everything is straightforward. The oilheads are slightly more difficult to work on, but I did my own servicing on my 1150GS. I recall doing a valve adjust on my K1, which of course requires pulling the camshafts to replace the buckets. A bit more difficult than a valve adjust on either an airhead or oilhead, but at least the cams are accessible from the left side.

However, as the years go by, the machines keep getting more and more complicated. And with more electronics, CAN bus, etc. it's difficult to diagnose a problem without the proprietary interface and computer program. So, the system is more and more that you buy a complex machine, and depend on a dealer's tech force to keep it running, a lot like I treat our cars. After 3-5 years, it's probably smart to trade a bike in on a new one, before you run into problems.

And if you're not mechanically inclined, you're at the mercy of the dealer, so you should choose a brand and dealer wisely. I'd have very little faith in a shop that employs only kids under 25 years old. They aren't likely to have the necessary experience, even if they are lucky enough to have factory training.

I bought a Can Am Spyder last year, and I just found that "my" dealer (three hours away) went under. So, at the moment I'm deep in the innards of the Spyder, doing a valve adjust. For me, that's at least a two day job, not counting waiting for the needed shims. Hey, it's cold and rainy outside!

Motorcycle dealers (other than BMW) are not doing well either, and many are closing their doors. Sales of some brands are down 60% over the past three years. So, it's a tricky time to consider what brand or model you should own. And if you have a dealer (any brand) who takes care of business but charges (what you think is) too much, I'd advise just paying the bill and being thankful the bike is running. It would be embarrassing to jump ship to a Yamaha or Honda, and then have your local Yam or Honda dealer go under.

pmdave

 

[racer7]

pmdave- nice to see you typing. Hope the hand keeps getting better and I gather you're making some good progress now that you're messing around in the bowels of the Spyder.

A slight disagreement with one point in that I don't think the fact that one needs a computer interface of some type to quickly diagnose many things today means you need to go anywhere near a dealer. The ready availability of tools that read the internals makes is easy to do yourself, even if it does cost a few $ for the tools. It actually helps me stay away from dealers. And of couse, there are some pretty good generic readers for cars even if there aren't (yet) for bikes.

I'd argue that the biggest issue is learning the variants between all the vehicles. Its tough to dive far into a lot of todays stuff without specific knowledge if for no other reason than it may be darn hard to even locate and trace stuff without that specific knowledge. And we've sure gotten god at cheap and well hidden fasteners- thank goodness BMW motorcycles are a real exception to that - real screws and stuff tht actually fits!. Oh for the good old days of American full size 6 cyl stuff when you could just stand in the engine compartment to do a tuneup.

We've watched a lot of evolution from the old days where everything had points and carbs and very little about specific machine differences knowledge was needed. And we've had a lot of versions of electronic improvements from the first electronic ignitions to pre-OBDII diagnostics that could be read off the vehicle dash panel to todays OBDII and bike types. I like almost all of the progress.

I do agree with you re the risk of keeping old stuff with todays electronics that get very pricey to repair when they die. But I think most of that risk is seen in the early years of ownership where the electronic lemons are normally pretty obvious (my wife had a Mercedes that ate over $10K in parts alone under warranty until a bright tech finally figured out that a defective computer unit was frying a whole lot of stuff it interacted with on a regular basis- this would be a nightmare if it started on an old vehicle.)

 

[36654]

A more interesting question to me is whatÔÇÖs up with BMW owners.

When I started riding my first BMW it was a long haul to a dealer and they were even scarcer. The lack of BMWs on the street in general appealed to many of us because we didnÔÇÖt run into ourselves as we rode.

The MOA, the RA and many local clubs started to meet the needs of riders to care and maintain their bikes with little or no help from dealers beyond selling parts. Complexity of the bikes and a shift in riders has changed that dynamic for many.

Finally as Rinty pointed out there are more and more good bikes out there no matter the brand.

Mika,

What was your income bracket in those old days? In the US, BMW MC's are currently focused on the relatively affluent young retiree segment of the population (i.e., quite similar to Harley, but with different aesthetics). These guys aren't interested in being unique/eccentric, they want a toy for play period 1 to 3. Their perspective is the same as that of boat owners, they're really happy when they buy the toy and when they sell it.

As a result, the BMW product has become "flashy and pricey" and the old attributes of stable / reliable design have passed away. We, the older aficionados, have just been let behind as the company chases its most viable market.

We should just be happy for memories.

 

[Ken F]

Well, that does it.

After reading this whole thread, I'm just going to sell both my BMW's. Maybe buy a rocking chair.
Obviously BMW's are not worth owning.
460

 

[pmdave]

pmdave- nice to see you typing. Hope the hand keeps getting better and I gather you're making some good progress now that you're messing around in the bowels of the Spyder.

A slight disagreement with one point in that I don't think the fact that one needs a computer interface of some type to quickly diagnose many things today means you need to go anywhere near a dealer. The ready availability of tools that read the internals makes is easy to do yourself, even if it does cost a few $ for the tools. It actually helps me stay away from dealers. And of couse, there are some pretty good generic readers for cars even if there aren't (yet) for bikes....) /QUOTE]

racer7, Yup, I'd been putting off getting my hands oily for the past three months. My PT agreed that detailed hand work would be good therapy. I've been driving the car for several weeks. I expect to be able to ride a motorcycle by January.

I think BMW is about as good as it gets for highly-computerized bike systems. But I wish owners had the same accesss to bike electronics as with cars. I understand there are aftermarket code readers for BMWs. I haven't found anything for the Spyder. Fortunately, even the complex tasks such as adjusting valves (V-twin Rotax, 4-valve heads, shim under bucket under cam) is mostly a matter of careful wrenching.

Years ago I decided to downsize my commuter machine from a Moto Guzzi to a Honda Ascot thumper. I also had a BMW R80 for traveling. One day the Ascot had a rear wheel flat. I went out after dinner to repair it, and couldn't extricate the axle. The axle and spacer both were turned rather crudely, and the machining grooves swaged together. I sweated, swore, banged, heated, and twisted, all the while glancing at the BMW and Guzzi, knowing their axles would have been out in seconds. Eventually I hack-sawed the axle off through the spacer.

That experience helps me to keep BMW technology and quality in perspective.

One other issue is parts availability. I am really pleased I can go online and order parts for my airheads, with little or no waiting. I just found a site for Can Am parts that allows me to get parts shipped directly to me--at discounted prices. I hope no waiting or problems. And if anyone thinks BMW parts are "expensive", Spyder parts are pretty steep. For example, valve shims go for $5 to $8 each. The air filter is about $30; oil and hydraulic filters about $20 ea. And with a wet clutch it requires 5W40 synthetic motorcycle oil, at around $40/gallon. One of my friends with a Spyder takes his to the dealer for servicing. I recall he mentioned about $700 for a tuneup.

Frankly, I'm amazed BMW AG can keep the parts prices down, considering the nosedive in the value of the dollar to the Euro over the past few years.

Although a Honda GL or ST would be way too heavy for me these days, I seldom hear any complaints from GL or ST owners about reliability, maintenance, or excessive labor charges. I wonder how GL/ST sales are doing these days?

pmdave

 

[gertiektn]

Thanks for the clarification.

Don,
Thanks for you clear description of your FD issues and failures.

I too, am your contemporary and hope this does not occur on my R1100S.

I'm curious if the dealers had any answers or if you have taken the FD to see what technically went bust. One could surmize that the units were a bad batch.

I am sorry that you have had this experience.. and I hope that my FD goes as long as the engine.. I think this is a reasonable expectation.

I am and I am sure other forum members would be interested in learning more about you experiences and fixes if any. I have noted that others have had these failures on Oilheads, but had thought that only at high miles.

I do understand your disgust over failure of the product. Seems like BMW should stand behind it, regardless of the warranty with so few miles.

A quick fix would be to buy a low "Breaker" FD and change them out.

Jim Dahl
Ketchikan, Alaska

 

[SteveAikens]

Iv'e never had a fuel gauge on my r100rt,I just use the trip meter ,all there is!

And you can look into the tank to verify what's in there.

mY FUel gauge never worked on my k100lt i use the trip meter,

And you can look into the tank to verify what's in there.

If the fuel strip? ever quits on my 96r11rt I'll use the trip meter,

And you can look into the tank to verify what's in there.

unless it prevents the bike from properly starting or running,who needs a fuel gauge anyways? I always know within 25 miles how much gas I have left. If one never had the LUXURY of a fuel gauge then how do you know you'll miss it? My bikes always ran great without a fuel gauge.....

And you've always had bikes that you could look into the tank to see remaining fuel levels. Additionally, you've always had bikes that were reletively stable in their fuel consumption.

Neither of those factors are the case in today's BMW's. I now ride an R1200RT. Not only can you not see into the tank, BMW, in their infinate wisdom, have now altered the opening direction of the fuel filler cap and installed a rubber filler tube that goes further into the tank to make absolutely certain you can not see in the tank. You should also know that today's bikes seem less consistent in their fuel consumption. Mine can swing as much as 5 mpg. Where that may not seem like much - some of us use our motorcycles for endurance rallying, where knowing for certain how much fuel you have, and how many miles that fuel will take you can mean the difference in finishing high in the point standings - or a DNF.

If someone were riding in the Iron Butt Rally - for example - and was plunking down $1850 just to START the ride, don't you think it would be important for them to know at least reasonably, that they have a method of insuring they have enough fuel - under rally conditions?

I've been a rider since 1956. I have some minor experience in managing fuel without a fuel gauge on bikes that were designed to operate without them - or at least gave you a reasonable method of verifying remaining fuel - in the old days, I never rode out of my driveway without looking in the tank to see how much fuel there was.

Today's bikes are designed in a manner that prevents doing that.
Today's bikes are designed to use a fuel gauge.
BMW gave us a fuel gauge that is unreliable.
Like a number of other things in the current design, It needs to be fixed.

It's as simple as that.

Let me know if you're not clear on the problems related to FD failures and I'll see if I can help clear that up for you as well. Having had to replace one on my RT-P, I can relate first hand on how expensive it is when it's out of your pocket. Final drives should not fail - in my case - at 51,000 miles.