The Downside to Odyssey Batteries

[jconway607]

I know this will be heresy, but in the interest of those who are considering battery choices (which I was about a year ago) I thought I would add this thread. Everyone seems to love the PC680. Reading the forum, you would think no one else made a battery that will work with our bikes. They are good, I mean they do the job. But what I can't see has been mentioned is that when you buy one, you better figure on buying their charger right along with it. And that's about $200 in addition to the pricey battery itself. I just measured my Battery Tender Jr and sure enough, at float it is putting out 13. 2 volts. Odyssey says their batteries require 13.5.
Of course the question might be, if the battery is "fully charged" at 12.84 volts (Odyssey's figure) and sits at 13 volts fully charged, ( my measurement) why isn't 13.2 volts enough? It appears to be enough for every other type of lead acid battery.
In another post it was stated that the oilheads can barley put out enough voltage for these batteries. You really need to do some tricky (ABS equipped) modifications to the charging system to run the Odyssey. Now the bike needs modifying also, not just the special charger. Boy, this is one demanding little battery.
I just talked to someone at Odyssey and got some information on how to read the charger's performance. . It will take about a day to do it. Should be interesting.

I guess I am in the minority, but needing to buy a very expensive battery charger, replace the factory shocks with $1600 Ohlins, putting in $10.00 per quart synthetic oil, on and on, all of it gets a little old. I like the bikes, but I have other places I actually need to spend money on.

My point: if you change to the Odyssey system, figure about $350 all total. I wish I had known that.

 

[gsaddict]

I know this will be heresy, but in the interest of those who are considering battery choices (which I was about a year ago) I thought I would add this thread. Everyone seems to love the PC680. Reading the forum, you would think no one else made a battery that will work with our bikes. They are good, I mean they do the job. But what I can't see has been mentioned is that when you buy one, you better figure on buying their charger right along with it. And that's about $200 in addition to the pricey battery itself. I just measured my Battery Tender Jr and sure enough, at float it is putting out 13. 2 volts. Odyssey says their batteries require 13.5.
Of course the question might be, if the battery is "fully charged" at 12.84 volts (Odyssey's figure) and sits at 13 volts fully charged, ( my measurement) why isn't 13.2 volts enough? It appears to be enough for every other type of lead acid battery.
In another post it was stated that the oilheads can barley put out enough voltage for these batteries. You really need to do some tricky (ABS equipped) modifications to the charging system to run the Odyssey. Now the bike needs modifying also, not just the special charger. Boy, this is one demanding little battery.
I just talked to someone at Odyssey and got some information on how to read the charger's performance. . It will take about a day to do it. Should be interesting.

I guess I am in the minority, but needing to buy a very expensive battery charger, replace the factory shocks with $1600 Ohlins, putting in $10.00 per quart synthetic oil, on and on, all of it gets a little old. I like the bikes, but I have other places I actually need to spend money on.

My point: if you change to the Odyssey system, figure about $350 all total. I wish I had known that.

Odyssey batteries are made from 99+% pure virgin lead. There is no Calcuim mix as with other batteries.
Float voltage must be a minimum of .6v over the fully charged state 12.85v in order to overcome its own self discharge characteristics. (All batteries exhibit this)
That's where the minimum 13.5v comes from.

You really don't need to buy a charger if you charge fully and disconnect before putting away for the winter.

As far as the regulator mod goes, who's fault is that really? I say BMW, how many other automotive/MC's charge at 13.9V-14.1v? Most are 14.5/6v

I really like the fact there is no potential acid spillage. I don't know how many vehicles I have seen with acid corrosion. And who wants to lift the tank to simply check electrolyte level? I for one gave that up long ago.

The only place I still see/use flooded cells are 125VDC Station power systems in Industrial installations. They are on a maintenance checklist.

My $.02 worth..........YRMV


Note: I smell an Oil thread starting.

 

[alancoles]

I wouldn't say that the PC680 is the best battery for an oilhead, but it is a good one, unless you are constantly running in a discharge or very near discharge state. But then that should really be considered a "unique or special" situation, which naturally usually require special considerations.

The same can be said about the maintenance charging. There are a number of batteries that will not be properly charged by a Battery Tender Jr., but that isn't the fault of the battery. The Jr. is a relatively minimalist, near entry-level charger, so one should not expect it to do things it was never designed to do.

Any qualify mid-level maintenance charger should work fine on the PC-680 and should be available for under $100. Absolutely no need to spend $200 or anywhere near that unless there is some other need.

I've run PC-680s for several years in both motorcycles (R1150RT ) and cars without any issues. About four years ago I bought a BMW Charger, the small metal cased one, at Max BMW part # 99990005656 it still sells for $69. I've used it to maintain the batteries in all my motorcycles and a couple of cars that I used to have that were only driven in the summer. Never an issue.

If you already have the PC-680, just track down one of the older metal-cased BMW chargers (haven't looked at their new one, but it would be more $$). They come with a DIN plug, SAE and jumped cable adapters so I just directly plug it into my R1150RT and Ducati ST3s factory DIN receptacles and nothing could be easier. My other bikes are wired up with SAE plugs off the battery so I just swap the leads on the BMW charger and everything works great. BTW, the BMW charger is a Deltran Battery Tender charger that was simply re-branded for BMW.

 

[jconway607]

The same can be said about the maintenance charging. There are a number of batteries that will not be properly charged by a Battery Tender Jr., but that isn't the fault of the battery. The Jr. is a relatively minimalist, near entry-level charger, so one should not expect it to do things it was never designed to do.

Any qualify mid-level maintenance charger should work fine on the PC-680 and should be available for under $100. Absolutely no need to spend $200 or anywhere near that unless there is some other need.

About four years ago I bought a BMW Charger, the small metal cased one, at Max BMW part # 99990005656 it still sells for $69. I've used it to maintain the batteries in all my motorcycles and a couple of cars that I used to have that were only driven in the summer. Never an issue.

BTW, the BMW charger is a Deltran Battery Tender charger that was simply re-branded for BMW.

I see that BMW does offer their own charger,... at a cost of about $100. And, indeed, it is made by Delran. Part number 71602365297. So apparently Delran does actually make a pretty good charger, including the Tender Jr. ( five year warranty) Incidentally, Delran stated that the Jr and the Plus have the exact same program and produce the same output. I don't know why the Plus costs $30 more, but anyone using the Plus on the 680: wrong charger. You may want to check the voltage output on that older BMW 99990005656 model, also. After 24 hours off the charger is the battery voltage at 12.7 and above? If not, according to Odyssey, you need a new charger. I'm guessing after reading all the recent data on the 680/charger relationship, a lot of people should be dumping their old chargers for a new one.
I myself now have three battery chargers in my collection, two of which won't work with my PC680, and the third not designed for trickle charging. So I stand corrected. If you are deciding on a battery choice and don't have a high output charger, you will be paying about $225 for both battery and charger. Of course, that's pocket change to most BMW riders.

 

[alancoles]

Not sure what to tell you???

I too have three chargers, two of which will charge the PC-680 fine and one, much older non-trickle charger that won't. I don't think we can blame the PC-680 for that.

I'll try to address several of the points you raised, as there appear to be some misconceptions.

1. Old BMW Charger I mentioned is not the one you identified (one of their new ones) mine was well under $100, the new one is $89.
2. Older BMW Charger is the equivalent to the Deltran Battery Tender Plus ($90 now)
3. Battery Tender Jr. (6v, 8v or 12v @ 750 mA) charger and is NOT close to the Plus (12v @ 1.25 Amp), there are several models of the Jr. but AFAIK, all are 750mA rating to the Plus 1.25 amp rating and, the Jr does not temperature compensate, so therefore could not have the same programming as the Plus.

You say that Delran told you that the Plus and Jr. were the same? All I can say is two-fold:

• Even a quick reading of the full data sheets on these two will show that this just isn't the case. You mentioned the most glaring difference, the Plus is almost twice the price, but in addition to that and what I mentioned above, it also comes with a warranty that is twice as long (10-yrs vs 5-yrs). There's a reason for that.
• It has come to my attention that more and more companies are hiring more and more incompetent people

Unfortunately, one can't always rely on what the manufacturer says unless it is actually coming from their technical department.

You mentioned that Odyssey say that my Charger is the wrong one for the PC-680, and state that "you need a new charger". All I know is that the PC-680 in my R1150RT is over 6-years old and still seems fine with only having my BMW Charger to keep it going from the small constant drain on it every year while it sits in my garage for 5+ months and I move the charger every week or so to a different bike so it typically only gets 1-2 days of charge every 3-4 weeks. I really don't see any reason to replace a perfectly good charger when I'm not having any issues with charging my PC-680 and it has lasted 6+ years in the R1150RT.

Like you, $225 isn't pocket change to me either, nor I suspect is it to the majority of BMW Motorcycle owners. You may be thinking of buyers of new BMW Motorcycles (who likely do spend more) as being the majority of owners, I am pretty sure you that the majority own older BMWs and many are price-conscious, however, they are also quality conscious. I own 4 BMWs the average age is 21 years old and the majority of BMW owners that I know have older and newer bikes. There are a ton of Airheads, Oilheads, Hexheads, and Camheads out there being ridden regularly and most owners I know try to keep an eye on costs.

Having said that, sure there are plenty of people out there who throw money around, including BMW owners. Some of the Ducati guys I ride with spend crazy money on carbon-fiber, etc., but I'd wager that H-D riders spend even more in after the initial sale purchases and likely several other groups spend more than BMW riders by quite a wide margin. Even some the Vintage guys who have 40+ year-old Nortons like mine have spent $10,000-$20,000 just doing restorations/upgrades! I know, crazy isn't it.

That's been my experience over the past 40+ years of riding, but YMMV.

 

[AntonLargiader]

I wouldn't say that the PC680 is the best battery for an oilhead, but it is a good one, unless you are constantly running in a discharge or very near discharge state. But then that should really be considered a "unique or special" situation, which naturally usually require special considerations.

It's more common than you may think. I have heard of (and had in my shop a few times) riders who rode a lot of miles but kept having Odyssey failures due to incorrect chargers that basically drained the battery. I think they'd have been better off without charging at all, which is usually my recommendation to regular riders.

Back to special cases, though, our county police have been very hard on batteries. Their RT-Ps have Odysseys and the auxilliary batteries were dying quickly. To understand why, it helps to know how the bike works: The aux batt is charged by a relay that connects it to the main harness. When you start the engine, the relay doesn't close until you rev the engine above 1800 RPM. When you return to idle (below 1500 RPM), the relay will disconnect the battery after about 4.5 minutes. All of the authority equipment is powered by the aux batt.

BMW's intent is that the bike is idling during a traffic stop but in real life the officer shuts the engine off, so the lights are running the whole time and draining the battery. Then the officer starts up, rides back to his station and after 4.5 minutes the battery stops charging again. It briefly charges while he rides off and the cycle is repeated. Blipping the throttle at idle will start a new 4.5 minute charge cycle but who is going to keep track of that, right? Coupled with the bike's 14V max charge output, it's not hard to imagine that these batteries are chronically undercharged.

I have provided them with a few of the CTEK chargers, suggesting that they charge each of the batteries at least once a week. If they're diligent I think they can charge each of them twice a week. I'll see how it goes.

 

[JDOCKERY132445]

PC 80 with no issues

I have been using a PC80 for well over 10 years with no issues. The first one I bought died in less than a year, but it was replaced by my current battery which is still going strong. I charge it every couple of weeks when I am not riding. The one time I had a battery issue was NOT the fault of the battery...I had a GPS with a defective battery that was discharging the battery on the bike.

 

[rocketmanli]

With rare exception, they have been bullet-proof on my 3 BMWs. I had one issue with one PC680 not holding a charge. I sent it to the place I bought it from thinking it was defective after only one year. They load and bench tested it,said it was fine, and sent it back to me. Their tech guys recommended switching from the Deltran battery tender I had been using all along to the CTek MUS 4.3. They charge at a higher rate in their "snowflake" mode, and I bought 2, and have no issues since.


The CTEK charger I got was the CTEK (56-864_ MUS 4.3. Best price ($67) was on Amazon...
http://www.amazon.com/CTEK-56-864-A...&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
They have a snowflake mode which is recommended for AGM batteries that maxes out at 15+ volts (desulfation mode) before it goes into float mode. Different than "bring-it-back-from-the-dead" mode, and recommended by the folks at Odyssey.

This came from Bruce R. Essig, ODYSSEY National Program Manager.

"Larry –

In follow up to your telephone inquiry about charging the ODYSSEY PC680, we highly recommend the CTEK MUS 4.3.

Use the snowflake charging setting for ODYSSEY. This charger also works on all other types of batteries, wet, gel, etc.

Make sure you use the snowflake charging setting on ODYSSEY batteries.

Let us know if we can help further.

Bruce R. Essig
ODYSSEY National Program Manager
Office: 660-429-7506
Fax: 660-429-1758
Cell: 816-668-6676
ODYSSEY Batteries are Awesome!

I have run MotoLights, EuroLights, 2 sets of Gerbing's heated gloves and coat liners, GPS, headlight and the heated seat simultaneously with no problem as long as I keep the revs up...
When sitting in stop and go traffic, I'll shut down the Euro lights, heated gear and seat which draws the most juice, then turn it all back on once I get moving. 2,000 rpms +- is the target to hit to charge or discharge your battery. Once discharged, it takes a while running to top it off, even with the revs up high.

Also, even though some battery tenders indicate a battery is topped off, the CTEK does a de-sulfation mode, which really maxes it out. I don't think the Deltran did that, and that's why I switched. There's a big difference between a surface charge and a full charge. It could be that your battery is getting a good surface charge but the Deltran is not de-sulfating the plates.

As always...YMMV.

 

[jconway607]

I appreciate the input from everyone. Please excuse my short fuse on this issue. I seem to be at one of those points in bike ownership where I am currently looking at around $800 for both the parts and needed tools to keep my, I guess "vintage", R1100 on the road. Not the bike's fault, of course, but still a hefty expense. Adding to that, I see local ads that tell me I could easily replace the whole bike with it's twin for $2500-3,000. Thinking about it, it may also be a carry over from dropping $1300 into my k75RT just before I sold it, at a loss. As Heidi Still, (top female mileage contest rider in the recent MOA News) so aptly put it: "I wish I could ride more, but these bikes are expensive to keep on the road." Yes, I know, Harleys are just as bad. Although I'm not so sure that also applies to Yamahas. (100% finishers, Iron Butt)

Having spent too much time on this issue already, I have concluded that there really is no solution except to purchase another battery charger that can handle the AGM style batteries. And that I have done. I still do feel that anyone new to battery buying should be aware that you need the special type of charger for these batteries. That old Sears model that worked well for Dad's Buick won't cut it. I suppose if I can stop my ABS lights from flashing, and also get 10 years of life out of this current 680 I will feel it was all worth it.

 

[robsryder]

I have been using the PC680 in a number of bikes for years, all kept plugged into Deltran Battery Tenders when not being ridden (or to/from rallys). I have not noticed any problems when using the PC680 in my 94 R1100RS. If I am camping and it is a cool morning I may get the flashing ABS light on the initial start. But after running the bike for a minute or so, I turn the bike off, then back on after waiting about 30 seconds. The flashing ABS lights have cleared and I'm on my way. I have had this issue since purchasing the bike new in 94 regardless of battery used. Batteries are typically replaced at 5 year intervals.

 

[GTRider]

There is NO battery I would expect to last 10 years. If I get 5 years use I consider it a very good battery; the most I've seen was 7 years use from an early Westco in my R1100RSL. 3-5 years is typical in my bikes.

The best solution to the question of battery charging is to ride the bike more--the oilheads have a charging system that will do a great job of keeping up the battery.

Best,
DG

 

[PGlaves]

Good modern chargers can be used on AGM, Gel, and flooded wet cell batteries. Older chargers designed specifically for wet cell batteries can too, but they don't work as well and can contrubute to shorter life.

That is the price we pay for advances in battery technology. I still have - and sometimes use on a car battery - the Sears 12v 10 amp charger I bought in 1966. I also have a few newer chargers.

 

[omega man]

Good modern chargers can be used on AGM, Gel, and flooded wet cell batteries. Older chargers designed specifically for wet cell batteries can too, but they don't work as well and can contrubute to shorter life.

That is the price we pay for advances in battery technology. I still have - and sometimes use on a car battery - the Sears 12v 10 amp charger I bought in 1966. I also have a few newer chargers.

Before I go take my Geritol still use the Heathkit battery charger I built in the early '70s

The only real charging problems I have had is with the "converter" that keeps the house batteries up in the motorhome.....Thai is until I installed a "smart charger". Water consumption went from 2-2/3 Gallons per season to about 2/3rds of a cup per season.
OM

 

[alancoles]

It's more common than you may think. I have heard of (and had in my shop a few times) riders who rode a lot of miles but kept having Odyssey failures due to incorrect chargers that basically drained the battery. I think they'd have been better off without charging at all, which is usually my recommendation to regular riders.

Back to special cases, though, our county police have been very hard on batteries. Their RT-Ps have Odysseys and the auxilliary batteries were dying quickly. To understand why, it helps to know how the bike works: The aux batt is charged by a relay that connects it to the main harness. When you start the engine, the relay doesn't close until you rev the engine above 1800 RPM. When you return to idle (below 1500 RPM), the relay will disconnect the battery after about 4.5 minutes. All of the authority equipment is powered by the aux batt.

BMW's intent is that the bike is idling during a traffic stop but in real life the officer shuts the engine off, so the lights are running the whole time and draining the battery. Then the officer starts up, rides back to his station and after 4.5 minutes the battery stops charging again. It briefly charges while he rides off and the cycle is repeated. Blipping the throttle at idle will start a new 4.5 minute charge cycle but who is going to keep track of that, right? Coupled with the bike's 14V max charge output, it's not hard to imagine that these batteries are chronically undercharged.

I have provided them with a few of the CTEK chargers, suggesting that they charge each of the batteries at least once a week. If they're diligent I think they can charge each of them twice a week. I'll see how it goes.

Anton, that certainly is a real issue that the Authority equipment has to deal with. Too bad BMW wouldn't have done a work-around for them on that, even a simple bump up in max charge output, although, as you mentioned, if they could get into the habit/regime of having their garage personnel or the riders themselves simply plug the bikes in when they're parked at the end of shift, as you say that would take care of the issue of charging.

I gather from what you've said that it appears they're rarely damaged during a shift, but will be chronically under-charged due to cycling off and not being plugged in when off-duty.

I appreciate the input from everyone. Please excuse my short fuse on this issue. I seem to be at one of those points in bike ownership where I am currently looking at around $800 for both the parts and needed tools to keep my, I guess "vintage", R1100 on the road. Not the bike's fault, of course, but still a hefty expense. Adding to that, I see local ads that tell me I could easily replace the whole bike with it's twin for $2500-3,000. Thinking about it, it may also be a carry over from dropping $1300 into my k75RT just before I sold it, at a loss. As Heidi Still, (top female mileage contest rider in the recent MOA News) so aptly put it: "I wish I could ride more, but these bikes are expensive to keep on the road." Yes, I know, Harleys are just as bad. Although I'm not so sure that also applies to Yamahas. (100% finishers, Iron Butt)

Having spent too much time on this issue already, I have concluded that there really is no solution except to purchase another battery charger that can handle the AGM style batteries. And that I have done. I still do feel that anyone new to battery buying should be aware that you need the special type of charger for these batteries. That old Sears model that worked well for Dad's Buick won't cut it. I suppose if I can stop my ABS lights from flashing, and also get 10 years of life out of this current 680 I will feel it was all worth it.

No problem with the "short fuse", only met a very few people who never seem to have one.

I can definitely empathise with you on getting upside-down on a vehicle, especially just before it needs to be sold, etc. Had that happen a few times and it really isn't pleasant at all. Best of luck getting the PC-680 back to good operating shape. I'm definitely not an expert on anything electrical, but like others, for me I plan on 5-6 years for an AGM or GEL battery (3-5 for a flooded lead-acid) and anything past that is gravy. At least that's what I recall but I am getting more forgetful. ;-) :-(

 

[roger 04 rt]

My list of PC680 CONs:

1) Different charging voltage requirements (alternator mod and/or different maintenance charger)
2) Smaller physical size means the battery hold-down strap requires shimming
3) Heavy ground cable requires modification before it fits the negative battery-post-adapter

My list of PC680 PROs:

1) Excellent quality
2) No electrolyte maintenance required
3) Excellent technical support from Odyssey
4) Withstands a lot of abuse and can be restored/reconditioned

Since I'd read numerous posts about the poor quality of the Exide GEL battery that was stock on the R1150 and since I'm not a fan of the old flooded lead acid types, for me the PROs outweighed the CONs (after fixing them).

 

[179212]

what downside

I got a 94 1100RS late July 2010 battery seemed a little weak was having other stuff done early August so had dealer put in new battery as you have to remove tank to get to battery. 5years 8 months later I have the tank off for some wiring issue and after finding out it was going to take more than one person to warp the tank enough to reinstall, I decided to let the dealer fix the throttle issues (no snap shut when you let go) I had dealer put new battery in as it would cost more in labor later on than the cost of new battery. Had the odyssey battery before put a new odyssey battery because nearly 6 years of use about 50,000 miles seemed good all I ever did was plug battery tender Jr. into power port on starter a few times over the winters when light turned green moved charger to other bikes if needed. Issues with flashing abs lights not going off only happens when bike does not start right up I actually stop at first stop about a block from shop shut bike off restart go and abs lights go off. So what am I doing wrong seems like I should have been pushing bike a long time ago after a battery failure

 

[AntonLargiader]

The CTEK charger I got was the CTEK (56-864_ MUS 4.3. Best price ($67) was on Amazon...
http://www.amazon.com/CTEK-56-864-A...&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
They have a snowflake mode which is recommended for AGM batteries .

I happened to run across the notes I made while talking to my buddy who works for Enersys now. He specifically recommended the 7A model and not the 4.3; not sure why but I have a 4.3 with a circle and slash next to the 7A snowflake note. That's why I bought the 7002.

 

[alancoles]

I happened to run across the notes I made while talking to my buddy who works for Enersys now. He specifically recommended the 7A model and not the 4.3; not sure why but I have a 4.3 with a circle and slash next to the 7A snowflake note. That's why I bought the 7002.

I need to buy another (and greater capacity) charger due to keeping bikes in two separate locations and a sailboat with two deep-cycle batteries. Your post Anton prompted me to look at the 7002 just now. It looks like I'll need to source one of these now.

After reading the CTEK site info, two of the reasons you might have went with it over the 4.3 aside from the obvious 7A vs 4.3A charging might be that CTEK feel the 7002 is better suited to charging AGM and GEL batteries than the 4.3, and the 7002's "Supply Mode", which might come in handy in your shop.

Thanks to its SUPPLY mode the battery charger provides power even without a battery. The SUPPLY mode is indispensable when changing the battery as you avoid losing complicated program settings.
Perfect for vintage car, boats with one battery, boats with start & service battery, boats with start & service bank, scooter, motorcycle, Quad/ATV, lawnmower, caravan, and tractor.

 

[PAS]

I have been using a CTEK Multi US 3300 charger for several years to maintain my pair of PC 680's. It has the snowflake setting also. Obviously an older model.

 

[AntonLargiader]

... and the 7002's "Supply Mode", which might come in handy in your shop.

I bought them for resale so haven't really explored them much. Generally there isn't much need for a 12V power supply in the shop since I have so many new and used batteries available. I will keep that in mind, though.