Shorai Battery upgrade R1200GS/GSA

[Manhattan Rider]

Shorai says you can use a Battery Tender, and I have used my Plus unit with no issues. It works.

From the Shorai website:

Well, I just called Battery Tender in Deland, FL again and they changed their tune. They told me you can use them on a Shorai battery. That's good news for my KTM.

 

[lostrider]

Why could most people need a battery tender for a Shorai?

It holds it's charge for long periods of time without needing to be charged. That's one of the biggest selling points, good for a year or more without needing a charge.
I don't have power in my carport and travel working for long periods of time so this is worth the small added cost of a Shorai for me.
Mine sat for 4 months still connected in the bike last fall/winter, started right up like it was ridden yesterday.

I left my headlight on for 2 hours once, still started right up. I also use my bike to charge my cameras and iProducts while camping in the back country all the time, the Shorai's added capacity is very much needed to do this, and works great. I've killed a standard battery doing the same thing.

I've very happy with the performance of my Shorai, and also think the company has excellent customer service.
How many companies release updated products that could serve their clients better than the lesser ones available at the time of purchase, and then offer to exchange the older one for a newer one with no questions asked, with only having to pay the small difference between the two?
I sure wish Apple would do that each time a new iProduct with slightly more capacity comes out.




Taken from Shorai:

Q. Should I use a battery tender?
A.The short answer is "only if you really need to". Most powersports enthusiasts have gotten used to hooking up a tender to their lead-acid batteries, all the time. Shorai LFX have much slower self-discharge than the best lead acid do (1/6 to 1/7, on average), they do not sulfate as capacity drops, and they are the ultimate "deep cycle" battery, which means that they can still crank your vehicle even if the remaining capacity is quite low. Therefore most riders will not need to use a tender at all. Even a charger or tender uses energy you have to pay for, and there is always the possibility that a charger or tender can fail in some way, so if not really needed the best practice is to not use one.
A fully charged LFX can sit for a year or more and still retain adequate starting capacity, without damaging the battery. As such, any vehicle which has no current flowing when the key is OFF should never need a tender. At most it should be charged every 6 to 12 months, depending on the average storage temperature (cool storage is much better for any battery). Many older vehicles and most dirtbike/atv fall into this category.


http://www.shoraipower.com/t-faq.aspx

 

[AZ-J]

A.The short answer is "only if you really need to".

Believe me, I need to and here is why: secondary and tertiary symptoms of hypothyroidism, causing a distorted sense of balance (aka dizziness). It's not constant, and it comes whenever it pleases. It is not what you want when riding a bike, so mine has been little used the last few months.

Once I find a doctor that knows how to treat men with this mostly women's issue, I should lose the symptoms and get normal again. But right now, my normal prevents m/c use most days. That's why I use a Battery Tender, I need to.

 

[lostrider]

I'm sorry to hear about your situation and hope you find that help you need soon Jordan.

You mentioned not riding for the last few months, the Shorai is good for over a year without a charge.
Been tested at 4 months down time by me, but the way it started and has performed otherwise I have no reason to believe it wouldn't last as long as Shorai says it will.
I would probably disconnect the battery if I thought it would be closer to the year time frame for storage, I know my bike does draw a tiny bit of juice when just sitting.... not enough to even put a dent in this battery in four months though.

Not doubting your reasons, but these words taken from the Shorai Q+A I posted comes to mind.

"Most powersports enthusiasts have gotten used to hooking up a tender to their lead-acid batteries, all the time.......

A fully charged LFX can sit for a year or more and still retain adequate starting capacity......"




If having your bike with a Shorai on a charger makes you feel better while you're waiting for times to get better, by all means do it.
I'm just saying that it's very likely it's not really needed based on the info at hand unless you're not going to be riding for over a year, which I really hope is not the case.

I'm also not trying to be specific with anyone, there's plenty of mention of charging by a few folks, I'm just talking in general and sharing my Shorai "storage" experiences.

 

[Manhattan Rider]

Like any laptop, the batteries are great when you first get them. Most Lithium batteries are good for several years. However, they are best out of the box. Eventually, they will need a charger and then they won't hold a charge at all.

 

[AZ-J]

I would not charge it, except for my great HID low-beam set up, and several 30 degree +/- nights, right now. By the end of the week, today's 63F will be 83F and the nights will be high 40's or 50's. Then the bike can come off the charger.

But it will be back on June or July until late August, lol! OMG does the heat kill any battery!

 

[AZ-J]

Like any laptop, the batteries are great when you first get them. Most Lithium batteries are good for several years. However, they are best out of the box. Eventually, they will need a charger and then they won't hold a charge at all.

These batteries are not Lithium Ion. The Lithium Ferrous mix is far more durable. I think we'll see long life, especially in warmer climes.

 

[lostrider]

Like any laptop, the batteries are great when you first get them. Most Lithium batteries are good for several years. However, they are best out of the box. Eventually, they will need a charger and then they won't hold a charge at all.

I'd imagine the regular full charge to full discharge use on a laptop plays a significant role in it's lifespan as does the actual chemical makeup of the battery. I'd also imagine the science used in a Shorai battery is a little different from a laptop battery too, but I'm not a chemist.

But hey, like I said, if it makes you feel better, then by all means charge your Shorai that probably doesn't need it.
Just saying it's not really required as my own experience has shown me, for probably for at least 5 more years.
I guess it doesn't hurt to be prepared for the future, though anytime a battery stops holding it's charge is when you should replace it, not be forced to charge it, IMO.



Q. What makes Shorai LFX different from other batteries?
A.Shorai LFX batteries contain Shorai-proprietary eXtreme-Rate Lithium Iron prismatic cells (chemistry LiFePO4). Shorai LFX contain no poisonous lead, no dangerous acid, and do not create explosive gasses during charge, as traditional Lead-Acid batteries do. Compared to lead-acid, Shorai LFX lithium are also extremely light, have much lower self-discharge rate, do not sulfate (i.e. do not degrade while sitting unattended), and are environmentally friendly.

While there are other companies now offering Lithium-Iron based powersports batteries, all except Shorai use cylindrical cells originally made for power tool applications. Such cells are inferior to Shorai Prismatic LFX, for several reasons.

First, the cylindrical cells come only in one size, so that the possible shapes and sizes of the starter batteries they make are very limited. As such, battery fit into many vehicles may be poor, or impossible as they are too wide, or too tall. LFX prismatic cells, on the other hand, are rectangular packages which we can freely design and size according to the size requirements of the battery case. As such, Shorai LFX offer perfect drop-in fit in many vehicles and - if the LFX is slightly smaller in one dimension - high-density, adhesive-backed foam shims are included in the package. These can be applied to the battery box in a few minutes, to insure a perfect “as original” fit. No saws, cutting torches, or duct tape required!

Second is the pedigree. While power-tool cells may crank a vehicle successfully, they were not originally intended for the high current discharges in starter systems. As a result, cranking performance suffers compared to Shorai LFX, and the batteries will wear out more per every start. By contrast, Shorai LFX are the result of years of our own research and development, and are designed and produced in our own tightly controlled factory. Shorai LFX have been used in some of the most extreme high-current projects in the world, including autonomous aircraft, boats, and submarines, electromagnetic rail gun research, and more. In short, LFX have been designed from the “ground up’ to be a powersports starter battery with long lifespan and high performance, under a wide range of temperatures.



Q. How long will my LFX battery last?
A.That depends on many factors. Under the worst conditions, a lead acid battery may last only a few weeks and under the best about seven years (top-quality brands with regular use). In between you will find a wide variety of user experiences. Our research indicates an average of about 2 1/2 to 3 years lifespan for lead-acid. Under the same average usage conditions, we expect Shorai LFX to last roughly double, or 5 to 6 years. Under ideal usage and storage conditions, we expect 8 to 10 years to be achievable. Due to their lack of sulfation and slow-self discharge, Shorai LFX increase battery life most for users who sometimes store their vehicles for weeks or months at a time, and don't want to or can't use a battery tender.

 

[Manhattan Rider]

Well, I wish I had a dime for every false claim made by a manufacturer. Keep in mind this post started from a false claim that a lower amp battery was sufficient for a GS.

Their claims compares the Shorai battery to lead acid batteries. How about comparing a Shorai to AGM? Who uses lead acid batteries anymore? I have BMW AGMs in all three of my bikes and the newest one is four years old. You can usually tell when they are getting weak by the ABS faults at start up. I was burned by Westco batteries. I had them in all my bikes and when it got cold, all the bikes had ABS faults. After only a year, they were all replaced.

Nonetheless, this is good information. Like I said, I have a Shorai on my KTM and will test it there. I have nothing against the Shorai battery. I'm just a natural skeptic until the technology proofs itself. I don't take at face value the claims of anyone trying to sell me something.

 

[lostrider]

Well, I wish I had a dime for every false claim made by a manufacturer. Keep in mind this post started from a false claim that a lower amp battery was sufficient for a GS.

Nonetheless, this is good information. Like I said, I have a Shorai in my KTM and will test it there. I have nothing against the Shorai battery. I'm just a natural skeptic until the technology proofs itself. I don't take at face value the claims of anyone trying to sell me something.

As why I posted in the first place, a little bit of first hand experience when comes to proving claims made by Shorai when it comes to storage and performance.
I would be first in line spreading my experience if it was negative, as I have no personal interest in Shorai Inc. either.

A bunch of posts about needing a charger for normal storage for this battery is misleading about this product for others trying to decide if it's for them, that's all.

Happy riding!

 

[gunderwood]

Presuming I'm allowed to quote myself from another forum:

Something to consider is the max allowable charging current. If I had to speculate, it's also the reason Shorai kept uping the amp-hr rating from 14, to 18, to now 21 for the R1200s. BMW typically puts good alternators on their bikes, but these lithium iron batteries are what we call 1C, meaning the max charge is 1x of their amp-hr rating. So a 14A/hr battery with 1C has a max charge current of 14A. A 21A/hr battery with 1C is 21A, while a battery of a different chemisty which is more resitant to high currents, a 12A/hr 2C battery for example, would have have a max charge current of 24A. Etc.

Max charging current is important because charging at higher rates than that actually damages the battery. It may not be a catestrophic failure, but it isn't going to meet the performance specs anymore. Typcially the expected life of the battery is dramatically reduced. What does this have to do with BMW's alternators? Simple, they put good alternators that generator lots of power at lower RPM compared to most bike manufacturers. That means there is "available" amps, but where they "go" it determined by the regulator. Here is an example with the F800 because I have reliable measurements for that bikes electrical system (rounding as a 0.1A here or there are not relevant to the point).

F800 requires ~11A to run at a minimum. Additional accessories or turning on other stuff (high beams, heated grips, etc.) uses more power. However, at idle it generators ~17A. That leaves up to 6A of unused current (this isn't like a cars alternator with variable generation); the regulartor on this bike converts those 6A to heat. However, at a mere 3,000RPM it's generating ~26A (90% capacity) or an extra 15A. A 14A/hr Shorai battery may exceed the 1C max charge on the battery depending on what the regulator does (which is based on acutal system voltage). R1200s have even more powerful alternators, which would just increase the risk of over-current.

Just a thought.


Edit: The larger batteries are actually less than 1C, but they are really two smaller batteries packaged as one. E.g. 36A/hr and max charge current of 24A, which is ~0.67C.

A 14A/hr Shorai should have sufficient CCAs (~200-250 is comparable) and obviously the A/hr rating should be fine too. However, lithium batteries don't like very high charge rates. They list their stuff as 1C and typically for lithium, they mean it! That isn't true for AGMs and other variations of lead acid batteries. Typically they can withstand very, very high charge currents relative to their A/hr capacity as long as their temp remains low enough.

I realize this isn't an exact comparision, but it illustrates the point: http://www.optimabatteries.com/product_support/charging.php

Alternator:
13.65 to 15.0 volts, no amperage limit.

Battery Charger:
13.8 to 15.0 volts, 10 amps maximum, 6-12 hours approximate.

Rapid Recharge:
Maximum voltage 15.6 volts (regulated), no current limit as long as battery temperature remains below 125??F (51.7??C). Charge until current drops below 1 amp.

I can't seem to find it, but there was a Hawker Genesis test showing no damage to their AGMs at 3C charge rates (i.e. 42A for a "typical" 14A/hr battery). Often you will see max charge rates of much less than 1C for the various lead acid batteries. The key is charging without thermal feedback is best kept to a fraction of amps. However, auto/motorcylce alternators easily dump more than 1C on a battery that just cranked over a few times and then rode right off.

Just my two cents, for whatever it's worth.

 

[AZ-J]

But a 14AH was insufficient for my R1200S once I had the HID headlamp. The lamp would light up key on, and shut off once running.

The solution was to key on and count to 30 or key on, turn on heated grips and count to 10. Yet, the free upgrade to the 18AH fixed all that.

If I lived where it gets and stays cold, I'd switch for the 21AH, but for my clime the 18AH seems better.

I do notice the BT stays red much longer before going green using the Shorai, then with the prior lead acid battery. That must be the total load of the battery sucking on juice!

 

[marchyman]

Who uses lead acid batteries anymore? I have BMW AGMs in all three of my bikes and the newest one is four years old.

Uh, you are using a lead acid battery. AGM is Lead Acid... technically Valve Regulated Lead Acid. Perhaps you meant flooded lead acid? One of the advantages that AGM has over flooded lead acid is a lower self discharge rate. Apparently the LiFe batteries have a lower rate, yet.

 

[gunderwood]

But a 14AH was insufficient for my R1200S once I had the HID headlamp. The lamp would light up key on, and shut off once running.

The solution was to key on and count to 30 or key on, turn on heated grips and count to 10. Yet, the free upgrade to the 18AH fixed all that.

So the solution to not having power to run your HID was to draw more power from the by waiting for 30s or to draw even more power by turning on the grips and waiting 10s? That's a cold problem, not a capcity problem (which is what A/hr is). You can cover it up by installing a larger capacity battery since it will generally have better cold performance, but if it gets cold enough...

Since you live in AZ (presumably where you had most of your starting issues), I doubt you saw much sub 20F weather (see FAQ below). So either the manufacturer is lying about their specs or the lower capacity batteries are being damaged during use. Presumably people aren't running these batteries to more than 80% DoD where they could be damaged. Since you live in AZ, it could be heat damage, but a larger capacity battery would die as well if that were the case. Violating the 1C max charge currents on a lithium based battery, even for a short time, can cause serious damage which will show up at in ways you and others describe. That's the only failure mechanism (that's different than lead acid) I'm aware of for this battery chemistry which is solved by going to a larger capacity.

http://www.shoraipower.com/t-faq.aspx

Lithium do increase in resistance more as temperature drops, compared to lead-acid. However, they also react to cranking under cold conditions in a much better way. Lead-acid will increase resistance on each subsequent cranking attempt, until it won’t turn over. If your LFX fails to start the engine on first crank, that first crank has warmed the battery, and the second attempt will be much stronger, and so on until you get a good start.

Shorai LFX are much better in cold-weather conditions than other-brand lithium starter batteries, due to our eXtreme-rate formulation with low resistance. Down to about 20 degrees fahrenheit (-7C) most users find that they can start normally on first crank. If your headlight comes on at key-ON, it is good for the batteries to flow some current before cranking in cold weather. The suggested headlight-on time before cranking depends on the temperature. If starting at 40f (5C), 30 seconds will help wake the battery and increase cranking performance. If at 0f (-17C), leave the lights on for 4~5 minutes before cranking. The result will be a better first crank, and longer battery life. Any other accessories that can be turned on before cranking can also be used for this purpose, such as heated gear, radio, etc...

 

[AZ-J]

Gunderwood, if we are 30F outside, my concrete garage is well under 30F. That 14AH failed high 20 degree turn-ons, and needed to heat up to work the HID.

The 18AH does not need as much of a heat up, that's all.

And during our week or so of winter, we see 20's and 30's at 5AM. The daytime 50's or 60's when the sun is up just shows lantana and hibiscus bushes dying from frost damage.