Numbers dont match!!!

[adventurexpress]

Noob here... so please forgive the ignorant question.

My son just bought a 1972 R60/5 off of ebay. During the auction process we had asked the question if "all numbers match"? To me this means the frame VIN and engine VIN match. The answer we got back was "yes-numbers match". When I picked the bike up... I looked at the name plate behind the headlight bucket and stamp in the side of the frame and they matched. Unfortunately ...maybe because we were excited about the purchase... we failed to take a rag and wipe the engine block to check that number.
Well.... when we got the bike home and offloaded it... I took a rag and wiped the engine block and looked at the number right above the oil fill hole.... and SOB!!!! the number doesnt match the others. My immeadiate thought is that this is not the origianl engine. My next thought was...how important is it to having matching numbers?

So I guess my question is .... How critical is it to have numbers match on a bike like this ? and what is the impact on value by not having matching numbers?

I am ging to call this gentleman tonight and tell him how disappointed i am in this deal... so if I could have some valued input from you guys before I call him...I would feel better informed. Let me know today if possible...on re: the value of matching numbers.

Your help is much appreciated.

 

[rkasal]

Depends

I think that was the one I was bidding on, too. Sorry to hear of this. The seller may have done the same thing you did and thought the numbers matched. Did he seem smooth and did he say as little as possible or did he seem to be trying to do the right thing and be forthcoming.

In regards to the value of the bike. If he's looking to sell it some day or years done the road when there are fewer of these and the value rises, yes, the value will be affected because of mis-matched numbers. How much is hard to say.

I really can't say what I would do in this situation. If in your gut it seemed in retrospect that he was trying to burn you then you may want to go after him but again, he may have made the same error you did.

How long did he say he owned the bike? Was he a beamer-head? Was this the only bike he owned or did he have others? This will help you evaluate his general level of knowledge.

Don't leave feedback yet.

Also, you may want to speak with an attorney in regards to laws in your state which may or may not apply to private purchases.

Good luck,

Regards,


Randy Kasal

 

[sumran]

If it is the correct engine and you are buying to enjoy the bike, rather than as a collector or investor, It may not be a big deal.

However, a few things to consider: Which VIN does your state reference for title purposes? Some use the frame number and some use the engine number. Be sure to get a title that does not cause future problems for you. You will want to consistantly reference the same number for insurance, etc. and you should have it noted in your policy so the is no basis for rejecting any future claim.

Make sure you know the manufacturing dates for both the frame and the engine. Even a few months can make a difference in ordering parts. If the dates are different and the bike is a hybrid (crusty mechanics will probably use a saltier and less favorable descriptive term), you will need to take extra care when having the bike serviced. You can enter your VIN number here and find out the month and year of manufacture.

http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fiche/fiche.asp

Sometimes parts change in mid year.

I expect the non-matching numbers would have significant impact on the bike's value if it becomes collectable. You could get a good gauge on that by comparing the price of matching versus non-matching vintage bikes. It would negatively affect the value even on a routine sale, but not as much.

Best of luck. Hopefully, you have not left feedback yet and the seller is fair and reasonable.

 

[sailorlite]

Isn't the number that's stamped on the engine only the engine number, not the VIN? My understanding of "matching" is that the engine number should match the manufacturer's record of which engine was originally installed in a specific vehicle. In other words, "matching" means that the engine is not a replacement, not that the engine number matches the VIN number.

 

[cayuse60]

The engine serial number and the VIN are different numbers. When ordering parts it is important that you have both numbers available.

 

[adventurexpress]

Wow...seems to be different ideas as to what numbes should match. Bottomline is that the frame number ad the engine number do not match. I believed they were suppose to... but again, Im new to this.

Is there someone from a dealership or BMW ouhere that has a definative answer on what numbers should match? The last poster...says they are to be different.

Can a few of you check your old bikes (maybe some toasters ont there) and tell me if your frame number matches your engine number (located above the oil fill hole).

My son bought the bike as a long term investment.... a 20 yr old that wants to be different.

Folks you've been helpful, and I appreciate the info. .... please keep your thoughts coming.

Thanks
K

 

[easy]

If the engine number and other numbers you are looking at are vin numbers, they should match.

The longer you keep the bike the more money you will loose on a sell, assuming they're vin numbers and don't match.

If it runs well and rides well, I wouldn't sweat the small stuff.

Legally speaking you're entitled to your money back, if you take him to small claims court. Is it worth the hassle? Only you can say.

Easy

 

[sailorlite]

I say that the VIN never appears on the engine. An engine number does, but not a VIN number. Thus, the chassis/frame number (VIN) will never be identical to the engine number, and the bike in question very probably does indeed have "matching" numbers.

 

[cayuse60]

If the engine number and other numbers you are looking at are vin numbers, they should match.

The longer you keep the bike the more money you will loose on a sell.

If it runs well and rides well, I wouldn't sweat the small stuff.

Legally speaking you're entitled to your money back, if you take him to small claims court. Is it worth the hassle? Only you can say.

Easy

The VIN and engine serial number are not the same on any BMW K machine I have looked at. Maintenance manuals instruct you to have "BOTH" numbers recorded when requesting parts.
I have not looked at any early R machines to see if there is a difference between VIN and engine S/N.

Any early R owners out there that can check their machines?...I would like to know...TIA.

 

[darrylri]

The 17 digit VIN numbers didn't come into use until 1981. Before that, there was no standard. The bike we're talking about is a 1972 unit.

BMW used various number ranges as frame and engine numbers through its history. Until BMW ceased civilian production to make units exclusively for WWII, the frame and engine numbers didn't (necessarily) match. BMW R12s and R71s that were made for the armed forces came from the factory with matching numbers, and all R75Ms originally had matching numbers.

After the war, BMW continued with this practice. The engine and frame numbers originally matched through 1980. After 1980, on the airhead bikes, the 7 digit engine number matched the last seven digits of the VIN.

I don't know about the K bikes, but the Oilhead engine numbers don't match the VIN.

 

[Rev_Eddie]

I say that the VIN never appears on the engine. An engine number does, but not a VIN number. Thus, the chassis/frame number (VIN) will never be identical to the engine number, and the bike in question very probably does indeed have "matching" numbers.

In actuality, it's the opposite in this case.

On '70's models prior to the introduction of the 17 digit VIN for 1981, the 7-digit engine number matches the 7 digit frame VIN. The engine number is stamped just above the oil dipstick.

Starting in 1981, the engine number (again by the dipstick) should be the last 7 digits of the VIN.

Beginning somewhere in late '83-early '84, the engine numbers stopped being stamped by the dipstick hole, and one used the numbers on the lower front left corner of the engine to identify what it was--but that wouldn't tell you the exact bike it came in as the number there didn't match the frame VIN.

There are various exceptions to this throughout BMW's history.
I have a first week of production 75/7 that has no number on the engine block.
I have a last day of production '83 R65 with no engine numbers, but an
early '84 R65 that does (with original sales receipts on both documenting this).

K bikes are an entirely different situation--the engine number doesn't match the frame.

Yes, the number on the frame should match the engine on your /5.
Unfortunately you already looked at it, bought it, and took it home.

If it's an issue to you, you can attempt to remedy with the seller.
Most sellers are stand-up folks and will work with you.
If he says take a hike, any legal action to recuperate $$ could now be just as easily be met with a "he knew at time of sale and bought it anyways" or a "it was correct when you took it home--what are YOU trying to pull" defense.

Buying from a private party all too often involves people not doing their homework--and then learning what they should have done after the fact.
Truly a case of "buyer beware".

In any case, numbers not matching can/will affect resale value of the bike.

If it's an engine number by the dipstick hole, enter it at:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/select.do?vin=&kind=M&arch=0

That will tell you what the engine came out of.

Hope this helps,


Rev. Eddie