Final Drive Failures

[cjack]

If you are a risk averter, change to the upgraded bearing.
If you are a risk taker, then ride yours to the end.

Ride safe.

I have two bearings in front of me which are the specified part # for the '93 to '04 (plus LT) final drives.

33121242210, the early number which has always had 19 balls.
33121468899, the later (replacement # for a while mentioned on an SB) which had 17 balls for awhile and now just comes in with 19 balls and is the identical FAG bearing as the 210 one now.
BMW now lists the 210 number as the newest bearing number and it costs (~75.00) about half as much as the 899 number.
If it costs twice as much, it will work more reliably...I guess.
??

 

[AntonLargiader]

Final drive discussions are a great way to tell who has knowledge and who has hearsay.

 

[knary]

Final drive discussions are a great way to tell who has knowledge and who has hearsay.

Very true.

Can some of us fit right in between?

 

[AntonLargiader]

Can some of us fit right in between?

Maybe. Whaddya got?

 

[knary]

Maybe. Whaddya got?

A blend of hearsay, innuendo, anecdotal evidence, and limited personal experience - all liberally seasoned with too much time on-line and the angst of a life-time contrarian that refuses to grow up.

Best guesses culled from the above in regards to the 'old' final drives:
1. Possible issue with specced accuracy of shimming of big bearing at time of manufacture (as was the case with my bike) over some yet to be determined span of time (FD failures appear rare in the early runs of the oilheads, but became more common in the final five years or so).
2. Extended high speed high temp running (as we sometimes do in the U.S. more than any other market) combined with #1 can cause failure of big bearing.
3. Questions of how well tested/engineered by BMW to deal with #2 and what could have led to #1.

Small addendum: I don't recall the exact numbers, but the bearing that came out of my bike ('01 GS) was thinner than the bearing that replaced it. This meant that not re-shimming the bearing would be a gamble.

How'd I do?

 

[Donster]

In order to ease your mind, why not have your FD inspected at the dealer at the 12K mile service.
If you have both followed these threads and read the article in MCN, then you know there is a bearing upgrade. So, upgrade your bearing.
The dealer replaced my shot bearing with the upgrade.
Time will tell.

Ultracyclist, thanks. I wonder if a preemptive bearing upgrade would be any less expensive than a post-failure repair? Less of a mess to mop up, perhaps? Would an inspection really help predict the likelihood of future failure? I get the impression that with BMW FDs things can be lovely one day and bonkers the next.

I haven't read the MCN article, but their Subscribe Now page is open in another window. Maybe I'd be better off spending the 22 bucks on Bass Ale instead.

 

[GSFORNOW]

Final drive discussions are a great way to tell who has knowledge and who has hearsay.

So enlighten us with the true knowledge. I'll be interested to read the MCN article.

 

[cjack]

If you have both followed these threads and read the article in MCN, then you know there is a bearing upgrade. So, upgrade your bearing.
The dealer replaced my shot bearing with the upgrade.
Time will tell.
Ride safe.

Maybe I left too much for the reader to make a conclusion from what I wrote last...

What does your upgraded bearing look like? Did MCN say that there was an upgraded bearing and describe it?

 

[awagnon]

Final drive discussions are a great way to tell who has knowledge and who has hearsay.

Anton. After reading the MCN article, I got the impression you, Paul Glaves, and the author felt there is a defect in the design of the final drive on the EVO FD and perhaps the older paralever FD. Perhaps I read the article and your quotes wrong. What I got from the article is that there is "probably" a FD design problem leading to premature failures and BMW Motorad is being silent on the issue one way or the other. As I said before, if there isn't an excessive number of failures, why doesn't BMW resolve this poor PR and say so.

The MOA is a social organization, not, as discussed ad nauseum, an advocacy group.

Scott, I appreciate your pointing out the discussions ad nauseum about this being only a social organization. I went back and read as many as possible. Your statement is based on a quote from the Articles of Incorporation which I have been unable to find. Perhaps that is all the MOA amounts to. I'll admit, I feel it's more than just a social organization. I feel it's there to actually help it's members. That's why it publishes the Anonymous Book and has a foundation that supports rider safety. There is no reason an organization with 40,000 members can't take sides on an issue which seems to be a hot button on multiple forums and now a nationally respected motorcycle publication. Perhaps it isn't a real issue, but rather an artifact of the internet. How about some data. The MOA can do it. An individual can't. That's all I ask.

 

[bmwmick]

Final drive discussions are a great way to tell who has knowledge and who has hearsay.

Truer words were never spoken. upgrade bearing

 

[AntonLargiader]

1. Possible issue with specced accuracy of shimming of big bearing at time of manufacture (as was the case with my bike) over some yet to be determined span of time (FD failures appear rare in the early runs of the oilheads, but became more common in the final five years or so).
2. Extended high speed high temp running (as we sometimes do in the U.S. more than any other market) combined with #1 can cause failure of big bearing.
3. Questions of how well tested/engineered by BMW to deal with #2 and what could have led to #1.

Small addendum: I don't recall the exact numbers, but the bearing that came out of my bike ('01 GS) was thinner than the bearing that replaced it. This meant that not re-shimming the bearing would be a gamble.

How'd I do?

2 is, by definition, hearsay. But you have personal and direct knowledge of a shimming issue with your final drive so you're doing OK on 1 and the addendum. I'm not sure where 3 fits in; it's kind of broad.

When you say the bearing was thinner, you mean it was something other than a 85x120x18 (extremely unlikely) or the 18mm part was just a hair different than the original?

So enlighten us with the true knowledge. I'll be interested to read the MCN article.

This stuff has been written about over and over. I know I've written at least three for OTL (one of which is available online). I'm not trying to make the case that I have the Truth to hand down from on high, just that I write about direct observations and experiences, and if someone is just parroting what they read elsewhere they should not pass it off as their knowledge.

If I write that there's a new 14-ball bearing, it'll be because I've ordered it and counted the balls. If you read that and post on the forum that there's a new 14-ball bearing, it's hearsay. If you post that I wrote that there's a new 14-ball bearing, that's a fact (you directly know that I wrote that because you read my article). Hearsay can be accurate and when it's from a trusted source you can pretty much take it to the bank. The majority of what passes for information on these forum threads doesn't come anywhere close to that; it's been misinterpreted and embellished through several generations.

Anton. After reading the MCN article, I got the impression you, Paul Glaves, and the author felt there is a defect in the design of the final drive on the EVO FD and perhaps the older paralever FD.

I won't have that article here to read for a few more days, but I do not think there is a design defect. You could make the case that the design is defective if its assembly requirements exceed the process capability, but I don't know that to be the case. These things are capable of being built to last essentially forever, and most of them do. The ones I repair do not seem to have been shimmed well based on the differences between the old and new shimming. I can't explain why they were assembled the way they were or if the shimming seemed correct at the time.

 

[BeemerMike]

I'm not trying to make the case that I have the Truth to hand down from on high, just that I write about direct observations and experiences, and if someone is just parroting what they read elsewhere they should not pass it off as their knowledge.

If I write that there's a new 14-ball bearing, it'll be because I've ordered it and counted the balls. If you read that and post on the forum that there's a new 14-ball bearing, it's hearsay. If you post that I wrote that there's a new 14-ball bearing, that's a fact (you directly know that I wrote that because you read my article). Hearsay can be accurate and when it's from a trusted source you can pretty much take it to the bank. The majority of what passes for information on these forum threads doesn't come anywhere close to that; it's been misinterpreted and embellished through several generations.

So true . . . so easily (and so often) forgotten.

 

[kentuvman]

My thought on this posting is wanting to do my due diligence on buying a good 2 up bike to take my wife along and for longer rides. I'm told the boxer has more power than the "K" bikes and is a very nice ride. The fear in buying a used bike is reading online about people having FD failure with this model. Your comments are very emotional, colorful and sadly expensive repairs.
BMW has been making machines for a long, long time and is a prestious brand. You'd think the company would get off the dime when hearing about their customers complaining and saying well, I think I'll move to another brand vehicle.
I also am not naive that big companies, who need to show shareholder earnings can be reluctant to do the right thing.
As a consumer and motorcycle enthusiast my F650GS is the nicest bike I've ever owned - have owned hondas, yamahas and ridden Triumphs, Harleys . . .
I know that in running a small advertising firm, that if I ignored my customers complaints we would soon be without them.
IMO, it really would make sense for MOA, the organization that brings rallys to us and brings BMW Motorrad to the events to interview a high level exec at BMW to answer some of the questions you all have been discussing and hopefully bring solutions to the surface. I'm almost sure if they did a voluntary recall and charged owners $250 many would come to get their bikes inspected to help avoid a FD failure when on the road and far from home. Thanks everyone for your replies.

 

[bmwmick]

I'm told the boxer has more power than the "K" bikes and is a very nice ride.

I don't know where you are getting this 'data' but the Boxer has nowhere near the power of the K-Bikes. R1200RT has about 110 at the crankshaft and the K1200 (the new slant 4 engine) is about 167. The older Oilheads made 90 HP at the crankshaft.

 

[kentuvman]

Thanks, Mick for the HP clarification.

 

[gsweave]

Paonia, Co.

Fine yesterday, gone to **** today.

 

[gsweave]

Paonia Co.

It was fine yesterday, fine when I left on my trip 8 days and 3500 miles before.
I.E. no silver filings on magnetic plug, just same filings that I have seen at every service since new. 61,000 miles on clock.

02 1150gs personally owned since new.
Sure overloaded sometimes, but never more than a pillon.
Abused off road on a couple of occassions but never desert raced.



Dry this morning, a couple of grinding noises during the days travels, caused me to just inspect drive oil.

Oh yea! BMW spec 75/140 gearoil since day one of ownership,(it should be a bright Red)

So I am 2000 miles from home. A quick call to BMW of Denver at least finds A bearing in stock....(most network dealers would not have the bearing on the self) I am not very concerned about 19 ball vs 17 ball, any will do, at this point.



So whadda ya do? Ship in a buddies complete F/D off an RT? It wouldn't be any more reliable than what just got ate up.

My choice, set up shop in the parking lot. At least I have the opinion of 1000 BMW owners, all of which are the only ones that are right.

Here's the BMW quality bearing that comes out of my F/D. At least I caught it sooner than some, but I can't understand why you wouldn't notice it comming apart, there was an intermittant grinding/rubbing sensation in the pegs. This grinding started about 250 miles before the teardown. again first indication was grinding sensation in the pegs.

Cause???? Not lack of fluid
Not high temps
Not wrong fluid choice
Since new, this bike had the 3/9 wiggle. Which is improper shimming of crown gear.

I was lucky mine held up for 60,000 miles, it isn't out by much cause the wear pattern on the pinion and crown gear look great, but it is out enough that I will tear it back down this winter to shim it properly.

The repair even in the field was not that challenging except for the freezing of the crown gear which we achived with Dry Ice.

Cost of repair. 3.45 hours of time. One glorious day of riding Co, missed. $134.00 for bearing, $5.00 for O-ring. The rear seal I just happened to be carring with me as a spare.



Oh I had to borrow a heat gun from Josh @BMW of Denver. Thanks again Josh.

Cleaning the housing would have been easier on a bench, but I did'nt have that as an option.

The two most capable helpers/coaches a guy could ask for. Eric and Oscar.... Thanks guys!

So I have put 3100 miles on it since the repair in Paonia last month, No leaks, tracks like before, still wiggles and still is running BMW 75/140 Gear oil in it.

It will be reshimmed this winter to get rid of the wiggle.




As far as comparing it to a F650gs , didn't cost me any more than a chain and sprocket replacement would have, on the single.

Should BMW have self destroying bearings?????
No.
But if it mechanical, it is prone to wear and replacement.

I guess it all depends on how you approach life and travelling.


Take it for what it is, or whine about?



Me I am taking it as it comes!!!!!!

"Ride with Joy" shogs!

 

[USBYGS]

Leave it or Lube it...

With just over 88, 300 miles on an '01 GS the question has often come up in my mind. Riding two up, loaded with gear (total weight around 1100 lbs give and take), and riding the bike - not babying it. I have talked to BMW wrenches about whether to take it apart to lube and inspect and the common answer has been to leave it alone if there is no problems.

The bike is in Europe for the next few years for summer riding (two summers of Alps and Autobahn under the belt now). Would a cursory lube and inspection of the final drive change the alignment of what seems to be a well oiled machine? I feel the need to find out but would have to do the job on the road so would have to bring the parts and tools. The Euro deters me from having it done...

All your colorful and insightful comments have been enjoyed so far and is appreciated.

 

[BeemerMike]

Oh yea! BMW spec 75/140 gearoil since day one of ownership,(it should be a bright Red)

So I have put 3100 miles on it since the repair in Paonia last month, No leaks, tracks like before, still wiggles and still is running BMW 75/140 Gear oil in it.

What is the gear oil viscosity specified in your owners manual? 75w-140 . . . or 75w-90 (for synthetic)? It is probably 80w-90 for dino gear oil. BMW markets a 75w-140 synthetic, but is it the specified gear oil for your bike?

 

[cjack]

What is the gear oil viscosity specified in your owners manual? 75w-140 . . . or 75w-90 (for synthetic)? It is probably 80w-90 for dino gear oil. BMW markets a 75w-140 synthetic, but is it the specified gear oil for your bike?

BMW's tech information (their DVD on torques, service data, etc.) says SAE 90 API GL 5 for the '02 GS