gsaddict
Pepperfool
No worries Paul, I was responding to Mr. Petersen's regarding "fat plumbers stuff"
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Final Drive Failure - BMW Parts Warranty - 02 R1150R
- Thread starter jpeck
- Start date
No worries Paul, I was responding to Mr. Petersen's regarding "fat plumbers stuff"
Follow up
My final drive is back together and re-installed. I'm in the process of finishing my annual service and expect to be on the road soon.
I replaced both bearings on the main axle (ring gear) shaft with aftermarket bearings from Motobins. The Motobins bearings were made in Japan and Mexico rather than in Germany, but other than that seemed to be the same, except the large bearing was the old type (17 ball) versus the new type (19 ball). I measured the thickness of both bearings with a micrometer and there was no difference. I did not attempt to re-shim the tapered roller bearing, but used the existing shim.
Installation of the bearings on the axle shaft was straight forward. I cooled the shaft overnight in the freezer, heated the bearings with a heat gun, and they went in place easily.
I spent a lot of time measuring the end play on the axle shaft with the shaft installed without any shim. As is often the case, it looked easier in concept than in practice. I ended up building a jig out of plastic lumber to hold the final drive solidly to my workbench, and kept at it until I was getting consistent measurements on my dial gauge. I then did the preload calculation, then selected and ordered the proper shim. A .30 mm shim provided a preload right in the middle of the specified .05-.10mm.
The shim installed by the dealer was 1.0mm thick. If my measurements of the old and new bearings are correct, this would have resulted in excessive preload, which is consistent with the manner in which the large ball bearing cage was failing on the inboard side.
The rest of the reassembly was straightforward.
At this point I am fairly satisfied that I understand what went wrong and that I have things together right. Back on the bike, the renewed final drive turns smooth and tight.
I'm planning on doing an extra change in final drive oil, after about 1000 miles, to look for metal just in case...
I'm also hedging my bets a bit. I picked up a used final drive on eBay as a backup. It seems smooth and tight, though the large seal looks a little dry out. Later I'll look at it closer and get it ready as a backup..
, so that another failure won't get in the way of riding so much.
Next step: Contacting the dealer and/or BMW to see if there is goodwill there.
My final drive is back together and re-installed. I'm in the process of finishing my annual service and expect to be on the road soon.
I replaced both bearings on the main axle (ring gear) shaft with aftermarket bearings from Motobins. The Motobins bearings were made in Japan and Mexico rather than in Germany, but other than that seemed to be the same, except the large bearing was the old type (17 ball) versus the new type (19 ball). I measured the thickness of both bearings with a micrometer and there was no difference. I did not attempt to re-shim the tapered roller bearing, but used the existing shim.
Installation of the bearings on the axle shaft was straight forward. I cooled the shaft overnight in the freezer, heated the bearings with a heat gun, and they went in place easily.
I spent a lot of time measuring the end play on the axle shaft with the shaft installed without any shim. As is often the case, it looked easier in concept than in practice. I ended up building a jig out of plastic lumber to hold the final drive solidly to my workbench, and kept at it until I was getting consistent measurements on my dial gauge. I then did the preload calculation, then selected and ordered the proper shim. A .30 mm shim provided a preload right in the middle of the specified .05-.10mm.
The shim installed by the dealer was 1.0mm thick. If my measurements of the old and new bearings are correct, this would have resulted in excessive preload, which is consistent with the manner in which the large ball bearing cage was failing on the inboard side.
The rest of the reassembly was straightforward.
At this point I am fairly satisfied that I understand what went wrong and that I have things together right. Back on the bike, the renewed final drive turns smooth and tight.
I'm planning on doing an extra change in final drive oil, after about 1000 miles, to look for metal just in case...
I'm also hedging my bets a bit. I picked up a used final drive on eBay as a backup. It seems smooth and tight, though the large seal looks a little dry out. Later I'll look at it closer and get it ready as a backup..
, so that another failure won't get in the way of riding so much.Next step: Contacting the dealer and/or BMW to see if there is goodwill there.
AntonLargiader
Well-known member
The shim has never been that small in all of the final drives I've rebuilt. It's typically between 0.65 and 0.80 and I think never below about 0.55 for that style of final drive.
gsaddict
Pepperfool
.55 to .70 for ones I've done.
Thanks for feedback from Sechelt and Charlottesville, and to everyone else who has shared their thoughts and ideas.
With the cover torqued down with no shim in place, I measured end play of .23-.24mm rotating the axle through 360 degrees. Most measurements were .24. The spec of .05 to .10 preload brought me to the .30 shim.
With the .30 shim in place and the cover torqued down, I could not detect any end play with the same setup, which tells me that I have some preload on the tapered roller bearing.
As I replaced both the tapered roller and the ball bearing on the axle shaft, I could have reduced the end play if either of the bearings or the roller bearing race were not fully seated. I'm pretty sure that they were all properly seated, but I could be wrong. I didn't try to press them on, using the cold/hot method instead, which enabled the bearing to be tapped easily into place. I've replaced a few bearings before, but not on a BMW final drive.
I was planning on watching the final drive very closely and sticking close to home for the first miles. Based on your feedback I'll be watching it even more closely, based on the possibility that I might have messed up somehow. I'm sure that the Tech at Pittsburg BMW is a lot better mechanic than I am. He apparently messed up, so I certainly could.
I'll also be getting that backup final drive ready to go sooner rather than later. My backup drive isn't failing, but the outer seal looks kind of iffy, and I will likely at least take the cover off and check the bearings and shimming, just for kicks.
Based on my recent experience, it will be a long time before I have the some trust in the final drive anyway. I think there may be a chain drive in my future...
I'll post a follow up later and let you know how it works out, either way, so maybe someone besides me will learn something.
Thanks again for sharing your expertise!
With the cover torqued down with no shim in place, I measured end play of .23-.24mm rotating the axle through 360 degrees. Most measurements were .24. The spec of .05 to .10 preload brought me to the .30 shim.
With the .30 shim in place and the cover torqued down, I could not detect any end play with the same setup, which tells me that I have some preload on the tapered roller bearing.
As I replaced both the tapered roller and the ball bearing on the axle shaft, I could have reduced the end play if either of the bearings or the roller bearing race were not fully seated. I'm pretty sure that they were all properly seated, but I could be wrong. I didn't try to press them on, using the cold/hot method instead, which enabled the bearing to be tapped easily into place. I've replaced a few bearings before, but not on a BMW final drive.
I was planning on watching the final drive very closely and sticking close to home for the first miles. Based on your feedback I'll be watching it even more closely, based on the possibility that I might have messed up somehow. I'm sure that the Tech at Pittsburg BMW is a lot better mechanic than I am. He apparently messed up, so I certainly could.
I'll also be getting that backup final drive ready to go sooner rather than later. My backup drive isn't failing, but the outer seal looks kind of iffy, and I will likely at least take the cover off and check the bearings and shimming, just for kicks.
Based on my recent experience, it will be a long time before I have the some trust in the final drive anyway. I think there may be a chain drive in my future...
I'll post a follow up later and let you know how it works out, either way, so maybe someone besides me will learn something.
Thanks again for sharing your expertise!
Another follow up
Considering the thoughts about how unusual a .30 mm shim would be, and the elegance of using solder to make the end play measurement, and the fact that the bike was already on the lift, everything clean, etc., I got into it again today and did the measurements using the suggested solder method. I repeated the process several times until I got consistent results, ending up with a measured end play of .50mm. Figuring that the plasticity of the solder would tend to make the measure on the low rather than high side, I ordered a .60mm shim.
As my measurement using a dial gage was .24mm end play, the only reasonable explanation I can come up with is that I must not have been getting the entire range of travel, due to the tightness of the bearing in the cover.
I feel much better now. Now I can get back to flushing brake and clutch fluid, and installing a new fuel filter. Thanks again!
Considering the thoughts about how unusual a .30 mm shim would be, and the elegance of using solder to make the end play measurement, and the fact that the bike was already on the lift, everything clean, etc., I got into it again today and did the measurements using the suggested solder method. I repeated the process several times until I got consistent results, ending up with a measured end play of .50mm. Figuring that the plasticity of the solder would tend to make the measure on the low rather than high side, I ordered a .60mm shim.
As my measurement using a dial gage was .24mm end play, the only reasonable explanation I can come up with is that I must not have been getting the entire range of travel, due to the tightness of the bearing in the cover.
I feel much better now. Now I can get back to flushing brake and clutch fluid, and installing a new fuel filter. Thanks again!
Still another follow up.
As someone pointed out to me earlier in this thread, the BMW parts and labor warranty requires that the motorcycle be returned to the dealer. I am still put off by the Pittsburg BMW dealer's attitude about standing behind its work, and about BMW Motorrad's lack of concern about my situation. However, I decided to move on and accept that people working on their own motorcycles is not a big part of BMW's corporate business model.
After completing the repair, I was naturally apprehensive about reliability, so I decided to watch things carefully. I drained the final drive oil at about 500 miles and there was no evidence of metal in the oil. As I was planning to ride to the MOA Rally in Salt Lake, I purchased a back up drive and installed new bearings and seals, to have on the shelf as a security blanket to be sent to me if I needed it on the trip. Traveling to Salt Lake, I checked for 3-9 play most mornings, which I know may sound excessive, but it made me feel better. The bike performed well and I had a good trip. When I returned home after about 5000 miles, I drained the final drive and found no evidence of metal in the oil and no 3-9 play, so all is well. In the future I'll be changing final drive oil whenever I change engine oil, in hope of catching any developing issues early at home where it's easier to take care of things. In the past I changed final drive oil annually, but not every time I changed oil.
Overall, I'm glad I did the repair myself, because I now understand this part of the motorcycle better and I have some confidence that I can repair it again down the road if I need to.
Thanks again to all who helped me through this.
As someone pointed out to me earlier in this thread, the BMW parts and labor warranty requires that the motorcycle be returned to the dealer. I am still put off by the Pittsburg BMW dealer's attitude about standing behind its work, and about BMW Motorrad's lack of concern about my situation. However, I decided to move on and accept that people working on their own motorcycles is not a big part of BMW's corporate business model.
After completing the repair, I was naturally apprehensive about reliability, so I decided to watch things carefully. I drained the final drive oil at about 500 miles and there was no evidence of metal in the oil. As I was planning to ride to the MOA Rally in Salt Lake, I purchased a back up drive and installed new bearings and seals, to have on the shelf as a security blanket to be sent to me if I needed it on the trip. Traveling to Salt Lake, I checked for 3-9 play most mornings, which I know may sound excessive, but it made me feel better. The bike performed well and I had a good trip. When I returned home after about 5000 miles, I drained the final drive and found no evidence of metal in the oil and no 3-9 play, so all is well. In the future I'll be changing final drive oil whenever I change engine oil, in hope of catching any developing issues early at home where it's easier to take care of things. In the past I changed final drive oil annually, but not every time I changed oil.
Overall, I'm glad I did the repair myself, because I now understand this part of the motorcycle better and I have some confidence that I can repair it again down the road if I need to.
Thanks again to all who helped me through this.
Still another Follow up
I overcame my anxiety about the final drive and rode the bike to Salt Lake. I watched the final drive carefully at first for signs that something might be going wrong, but after a couple of thousand miles not so much. I had a nice time with as much mountain riding as I could find and met some nice people along the way. The rally at Salt Lake was good, as was the ride home. I had to replace a battery at BMW Sturgis, but had no final drive (or other) issues. When I got home, about 7,000 miles later, I changed the final drive oil and found no signs of any metal in the oil so it looks like all is well with the final drive. So far my repair has lasted about seven times longer than the "authorized BMW dealer repair, so I feel good about that. I will continue to change the final drive fluid more often than before and watch for metal in the oil. Thank you BMW of Pittsburg and BMW N. America for helping me expand my BMW wrenching comfort zone! Thank you all again for your help!
I overcame my anxiety about the final drive and rode the bike to Salt Lake. I watched the final drive carefully at first for signs that something might be going wrong, but after a couple of thousand miles not so much. I had a nice time with as much mountain riding as I could find and met some nice people along the way. The rally at Salt Lake was good, as was the ride home. I had to replace a battery at BMW Sturgis, but had no final drive (or other) issues. When I got home, about 7,000 miles later, I changed the final drive oil and found no signs of any metal in the oil so it looks like all is well with the final drive. So far my repair has lasted about seven times longer than the "authorized BMW dealer repair, so I feel good about that. I will continue to change the final drive fluid more often than before and watch for metal in the oil. Thank you BMW of Pittsburg and BMW N. America for helping me expand my BMW wrenching comfort zone! Thank you all again for your help!
jandhumphreyme
Active member
John,
Congratulations on completing your repair. Maybe I missed it, what was the thickness of the shim you removed?
Congratulations on completing your repair. Maybe I missed it, what was the thickness of the shim you removed?
