Diagnostics is a lost art...

[globalrider]

In many cases it seems true because to diagose something, you need an understanding of the system.

You just gotta love YouTube when someone has a vehicle issue and countless viewers post recommendations for “the fix”. Generally there is one fix, not countless fixes.

Anyway, in the video I am watching, he is reading off a list of all the viewer recommendations that he tried and also with the solution at the end of the twenty-plus minute video.

Having to watch the balance of the twenty-plus minute video to confirm what I was sure the solution is after viewing the first minute describing the problem was frustrating. The vehicle would not start unless it was being cranked for well over ten seconds and only after giving it full throttle. This on a warm engine that was left to sit for several minutes prior to a restart. Sure enough, at about two-third of the way through the video, he is doing a fuel pressure test. Pressure was fine, but pressure was bleeding down fast once the ignition was off.

My guess during the first minute of the video: your check valve in the fuel pump is shot and the fuel pressure gauge at shown later proves it. Of course it could also have been a faulty engine temperature sensor which was mentioned but not countless other parts. But his video shows a “$5 Fix”. I never knew you can replace countless parts for $5.

Mentioned he should diagnose the issue instead of being a dealer or shop “parts replacer” and some of the viewer recommendations didn't even make sense. I won’t bother repeating his reply.

As for the $5 Fix, with about 150 videos, that just suckered viewers to click on it, much like the sensationalizing we see in the media.

 

[dieselyoda]

Diagnostic time is the hardest labour time/part to recover. I constantly get "it cost me ???? hours to tell me it was an o-ring and it it took you 15 minutes to fix?"
Then I get "stuff" from my boss asking the customer if he thought it was that easy to fix, why didn't he do it himself.
In all fairness, I do have my parts re-placers, makes my parts managers budget look good.
But charging $4600.00 to change a water pump when it was just a hose clamp wouldn't allow me to sleep very well.
My service budget, always short, but I can live with myself and customers know if I can beat the quote, I will.
That might be why I'm booking service into April.

 

[pauls1150]

Agree with all of the above.

I once had a manager (totally unqualified for the job) who "Needed" to know when a certain very difficult unit would be fixed.
"We haven't found the problem yet."
"But how long will it take to fix it?"
And repeat.
He just couldn't get it - "finding" the root cause is necessary before "fixing" the problem(s).
But he needed a number to enter into the Holy Schedule for HIS manager; meanwhile, the guy who designed this was two doors down the hall...

A neighbor bought a used BMW car a couple of months ago; I forget the model, some fancy-schmancy thing that's very rare in the USA.
We've had a few instances of extremely heavy rain around here in the past two or three weeks.
The car REFUSED to run - warning lights and messages ("Call your dealer!") everywhere.
The car dried out... and was fine.

 

[globalrider]

I had a coolant leak on my 2015 Porsche 991.1. Diagnosis took about a minute or two.

Even though I was under warranty/CPO, I replaced the square section O-ring myself back in 2021 simply because I hate letting the fox loose in the hen house, aka dealers and independent shops. A simple fix and it has been fine ever since.

 

[globalrider]

Back in the days when I worked in the defense labs, one of the sections that I spent time with at breaks (four of then had BMW motorcycles) the lead engineer had issues with his vehicle; the engine check light (CEL) would come on and off. After a few attempts at the garage and a slew of parts being charged, they finally solved the problem.

The mechanic cut the wire to the CEL lamp. Highly illegal since it is part of the emissions system. The owner noticed it not coming on when the ignition key is on/engine off. He got all his money back and that yahoo of a tech got his walking papers.

Yes, a true story. And people wonder why I do it all myself: electrical, plumbing, HVAC, construction, concrete pouring, all done to code or better. Hell, I can't remember hiring a trade...ever. Well just one guy, the one that hooked up the natural gas line to the HWT to keep it legal and for insurance.

 

[dieselyoda]

Don't mix diagnostics with a repair, please.

I spend about $2K/day on training for my guys (travel/hotel/wages/cost of training) and it comes close to $12K/month.

I can recover that if my guys can put a wobbly in the net.

I've seen my fair share of "poop" repairs. They don't work for me anymore.

In my case, I invest in them, I expect them to invest in themselves (tool/work safe/tell me that home responsibility is tough).

My shop rate would blow your mind. My road rate would give you a stroke.

My comeback rate is below 3% and my productivity per guy is approaching 80%.

I need those numbers to come up so I can spend more money on training.

And every two weeks, my management tells me I'm short on budget goals.

 

[kbasa]

Quite the humblebrag, Alex.

I hope you take that in the spirit it's offered.

 

[globalrider]

Quite the humblebrag, Alex.

I hope you take that in the spirit it's offered.

No worries Dave and I have no issues with arrogance when the person doing the work knows what the eff they are doing.

I guess you do not want to hear about two plumbing blunders within the first year of buying a new home by plumbers that are supposed to be licenced. My thought on licences hanging on a wall mean very little to me, sort of like degrees. Instead, show me what you are capable of.

 

[globalrider]

Don't mix diagnostics with a repair, please.

Hey, my thread, my rules.

Its sad when you don't do something for a living, yet you can do a better job than the person who does do it for a living.

Its called caring and giving a damn.

 

[BBrowning]

Don't mix diagnostics with a repair, please.

I spend about $2K/day on training for my guys (travel/hotel/wages/cost of training) and it comes close to $12K/month.

I can recover that if my guys can put a wobbly in the net.

I've seen my fair share of "poop" repairs. They don't work for me anymore.

In my case, I invest in them, I expect them to invest in themselves (tool/work safe/tell me that home responsibility is tough).

My shop rate would blow your mind. My road rate would give you a stroke.

My comeback rate is below 3% and my productivity per guy is approaching 80%.

I need those numbers to come up so I can spend more money on training.

And every two weeks, my management tells me I'm short on budget goals.

As a recently retired Shop owner I can totally relate. After 47 years in the trade as a tech and a shop owner I saw my fair share of just about every thing as well. At the shop we had a reputation of being able to fix the problem cars that nobody else could or wanted too but it was becoming more of an issue on a daily basis. Good training is hard to come by and expensive. Getting the repair info is also hard to get and expensive. Being a one or two brand shop would help but in a small town that doesn't happen. Tooling up so you are able to even talk to what ever coming in the door becomes damn near impossible. We had several OEM scan tools and numerous generics all with subscriptions. Recovering all the time spent even though justifiable becomes time consuming, just in the explanation it's self. I left so much on the floor that never got charged for. Then of course. Front counter staff need to be just about as knowledgable as the techs in the back so nothing gets lost in translation. Education of your customer becomes part of the daily routine so they understand why that bottom number on the bill is what it is.
I was lucky in that I had mentored a young lad to step up and take over from me. Do I miss it? Sort of. The quest to find the problem. Sorting through all the systems that might be related. That eureka moment when you finally find that corrosion in the harness that is throwing that weird code. I don't miss explaining why it took 6 hours to find that corrosion.
In the end though, it was time. At 67 I just didn't have the energy to keep up with the fast pace that things are changing. Diagnostics is going to be the main stay of smart shops and owners that get it and step up. The rest of us are just going to have to find that shop and be prepared to open our wallets.
Customer " What? 105.00 bucks. you only hit it with a hammer.
Shop owner. Yeah, 5 bucks for the hit, 100.00 bucks to know where to hit it.

 

[globalrider]

At the shop we had a reputation of being able to fix the problem cars that nobody else could or wanted too but it was becoming more of an issue on a daily basis.

And that is the reason why some of us do it ourselves. No way I was going to pay shop rates for some tech to "guess" what the problem is and charge for parts along the way till the solution is found. Why I coined the phrase "parts replacers".

I like to spend time on YouTube watching DiagnoseDan (he gets cars from other shops that misdiagnosed the issue), South Main Auto Repair LLC and a few other really good sites.

Hell, if I can work on an aircraft without a licence because the aircraft mechanic there said "go ahead, I know you are flying it tomorrow, so I am not worried" so that was good enough for me. Damn and I'm still alive.

 

[oldcamper]

Maybe it’s because fewer of us come from a rural/farm environment these days. Also, machines were a LOT simpler 60 years ago, so there was reasonable hope one might be able to figure out what was wrong with something and be able to fix it, eventually. As stuff got more complicated some persevered in the “I’ll fix it myself” mindset, while others simply gave up and got out the credit card.

I think most self taught mechanics are aging out now, and problem diagnostics are being handled by software algorithms because it’s too hard to know much about how everything works. It’s just too complicated and especially with integrated electronics the problems are not so obvious.

 

[pglaves]

Maybe it’s because fewer of us come from a rural/farm environment these days. Also, machines were a LOT simpler 60 years ago, so there was reasonable hope one might be able to figure out what was wrong with something and be able to fix it, eventually. As stuff got more complicated some persevered in the “I’ll fix it myself” mindset, while others simply gave up and got out the credit card.

I think most self taught mechanics are aging out now, and problem diagnostics are being handled by software algorithms because it’s too hard to know much about how everything works. It’s just too complicated and especially with integrated electronics the problems are not so obvious.

If you want to change oil, install new shocks, replace brake pads, get new tires and many other routine "wear item" related tasks it is still 95% just nuts and bolts, so to speak. It is the computer controlled and electronic stuff that befuddles many of us old-school wrenching types. Devices like the GS911 help but don't completely answer the confusing questions.

Thirty years later I have yet to hear a convincing explanation how to cure the surging in many Oilhead engines in all cases. It seemed like some of this, some of that maybe usually worked but not always. There are moments I am convinced that the inventors of Bluetooth were psychological terrorists.

 

[globalrider]

Devices like the GS911 help but don't completely answer the confusing questions.

And when you get a manufacturer specific code that is not part of the OBD generic codes and you ask the manufacturer of the diagnostic tool what the code means, they get back to you "we have no idea, we just produce the tool". Really useful.

 

[pglaves]

And when you get a manufacturer specific code that is not part of the OBD generic codes and you ask the manufacturer of the diagnostic tool what the code means, they get back to you "we have no idea, we just produce the tool". Really useful.

I never got such an answer from Hexcode. Never. They are the first to have expertly reverse engineered BMW's coding, before OBDII was used on motorcycles.

 

[globalrider]

I never got such an answer from Hexcode. Never. They are the first to have expertly reverse engineered BMW's coding, before OBDII was used on motorcycles.

I was talking diagnostic testers in general. I have a few "vehicle specific" diagnostic testers. Of course getting a generiec code like a P0301 is not an issue, it is the specific manufacturer codes that are that are also not consistent from one manufacturer to another.

As for "reverse engineered BMW coding" my ultra-expensive GS911 could not do a simple hour format change back in 2016, months after I bought my 2016 GSA. Yet my ultra-cheap MotoScan could do it that I bought a few months later. I am sure the GS911 does it now which is kind of useless to me since I made the change back in 2017 using another diagnostic tester.

 

[globalrider]

Oh here is another good one from my days working as a flight instructor.

When the weather was down and we couldn't even do circuits, I would be called into the hangar to do some work on the club and member aircraft. Everything from pulling time-X'd engines and installing a new one to rigging control surfaces, etc. The club used to work on the honor system for time flown that members would enter. Well that didn't work so Hobbs meters would be installed. You'd remove the oil line from the firewall to the oil pressure gauge, install a 3-way fitting and an oil pressure switch that would close the electrical circuit to the Hobbs meter. As soon as the engine runs, the Hobbs meter starts up. Pretty damn straight forward. I did them all (about 10 aircraft) except on one aircraft, a C172.

So here I am in the right seat wondering why my feet are sliding on the aluminum plate (the club installed those plates in all aircraft). Oil does that. I am amazed that anyone would do an oil or fuel fitting, even if the AN fitting was torqued to spec and not check it for leaks during a run up test after installation. By the way, I am not an aircraft mechanic (an AME), but the person that installed it in that aircraft was. Ya gots to have the "knack". Stuff like that just has me shaking my head.

 

[dieselyoda]

I get why you want to do stuff for yourself. It goes to a sense of self worth.

While on holidays this past couple weeks, got the phone call.

Customer had his house (excavator) light go out.

Not a big deal?------Big Deal----$400.00 CAN controlled.

He replaced the light. no Bueno.

Troubleshooted himself, no ground from the harness.

WE HAVE THE PROBLEM, EUREKA!

By passed ground on harness to a good ground.

Without starting engine light was on.

My guess, he didn't realize all of his lights are on.

Started engine, she ran about 30 seconds and then the controller made a statement in a stream of smoke.

The machine is currently 60' in a foundation and it don't run no more. This one starts at $40.000 to recover and I won;t guess but his downtime will exceed that.

I guess what I'm saying is you might think you can do better, maybe you can.

But you might want to think a pro-trade might be having a trick or two you don;t know about.

We train, train some more, we make safety an uber critical component of performance.

 

[riderr1150gsadv]

Expensive lesson....

 

[oldcamper]

While service personnel usually have the tools to get the job done, they often don’t have the time to do it as carefully as the customer would like. I’m pretty deliberate when working on my stuff, but it usually takes me a lot longer to accomplish a repair than a shop tech would be allowed to spend on the task.

Service and parts is where the real money is made in most dealerships, and service department managers are under pressure to deliver good metrics to the dealership owners. It’s a system that ensures profitability for the dealership, but sometimes the customer gets the short end of the bargain.