Clattering noise!! R1150rt. What could be causing this?

[tangoalpha]

Hi Gang! Happy Monday!

I have a question for you Oilheads out there. As you've probably read I've been performing the 24K service on my bike and everything is going well, but there's one thing that has bothered me since purchasing my bike 1 year ago that I'd like to get your opinion on. When the bike is running I occasionally hear a clattering noise that I cannot identify. The dealer who sold me the bike tells me that there's nothing wrong, everything is fine, although to placate me, they did at their expense, replace the clutch slave cylinder which seemed somewhat suspect. I had just bought the bike 1 month prior (this was last October). It's also worth mentioning that the bike did have a shaft failure which the same dealer had repaired at 19K miles. So that's the history on the bike. The previous owner who sold the bike (on consignment) was meticulous in maintaining the bike and I have all the service records and receipts for the work he had done beginning with the very first day of ownership.

So rather than try to describe what I'm hearing I made this video. Please take a look and tell me your thoughts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08rKSUHyxhA&feature=youtu.be

 

[RPGR90s]

Hi Gang! Happy Monday!

I have a question for you Oilheads out there. As you've probably read I've been performing the 24K service on my bike and everything is going well, but there's one thing that has bothered me since purchasing my bike 1 year ago that I'd like to get your opinion on. When the bike is running I occasionally hear a clattering noise that I cannot identify. The dealer who sold me the bike tells me that there's nothing wrong, everything is fine, although to placate me, they did at their expense, replace the clutch slave cylinder which seemed somewhat suspect. I had just bought the bike 1 month prior (this was last October). It's also worth mentioning that the bike did have a shaft failure which the same dealer had repaired at 19K miles. So that's the history on the bike. The previous owner who sold the bike (on consignment) was meticulous in maintaining the bike and I have all the service records and receipts for the work he had done beginning with the very first day of ownership.

So rather than try to describe what I'm hearing I made this video. Please take a look and tell me your thoughts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08rKSUHyxhA&feature=youtu.be

Simple question. Does the noise, change, go away when you dis-engage the clutch (pulling the lever)?

If so, then the noise is normal. Its due to the clutch thrust rod moving fore and aft slightly (between the clutch disc and slave cylinder) when no pressure is being applied to it.

 

[m_stock10506]

If you put your hand on the pulley of the right side throttle body, does that stop or change the clatter?

 

[tangoalpha]

Hi Guys. Thanks for the super fast response on this. I completely forgot to mention that very important detail when making the video. YES, the noise does go away when the clutch is engaged. I also checked the pulley on the right side throttle body yo see if that might be the cause, but it wasn't the case. So far the clutch thrust rod seems to make the most sense. Here's a shorter follow up video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqgvg9xy_-s&feature=youtu.be

Simple question. Does the noise, change, go away when you dis-engage the clutch (pulling the lever)?

If so, then the noise is normal. Its due to the clutch thrust rod moving fore and aft slightly (between the clutch disc and slave cylinder) when no pressure is being applied to it.

If you put your hand on the pulley of the right side throttle body, does that stop or change the clatter?

 

[jandhumphreyme]

This is purely a guess on my part, there is a silencing device, felt ring, on the clutch push rod, part 15 on the parts fiche, its possible your push rod may not have this fitted. I've heard of this being an issue with folks who reassemble after a clutch replacement and forget or more likely do not see this little piece, and afterward report a rattling noise which goes away when the clutch lever is depressed.


Here is the part number; 23 21 1 230 440 FELTRING



Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk

 

[tangoalpha]

Hey there. Thanks for the reply. Interesting that you'd mention that because today I was thinking to myself about something similar...wondering if some kind of polyurethane part was missing that does exactly what you described. I guess great minds think alike. Now I have a part number tat I didn't know existed before so I'll look in to it.

This is purely a guess on my part, there is a silencing device, felt ring, on the clutch push rod, part 15 on the parts fiche, its possible your push rod may not have this fitted. I've heard of this being an issue with folks who reassemble after a clutch replacement and forget or more likely do not see this little piece, and afterward report a rattling noise which goes away when the clutch lever is depressed.


Here is the part number; 23 21 1 230 440 FELTRING



Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk

 

[nrpetersen]

Clattering that pronounced isn't just a felt washer omission (my opinion). I suggest removing the starter to see what is the condition of the clutch disk spline system. If the dealer replaced the transmission input spline system at 19K miles, did they verify the alignment between the engine and the transmission? How? That's a very very early failure, and I contend it is from a manufacturing error.

A terminology update - Clutch engaged is when the handle let out. Disengaged is when the clutch lever is pulled in and held. I agree it is confusing.

 

[jandhumphreyme]

Hey there. Thanks for the reply. Interesting that you'd mention that because today I was thinking to myself about something similar...wondering if some kind of polyurethane part was missing that does exactly what you described. I guess great minds think alike. Now I have a part number tat I didn't know existed before so I'll look in to it.

I looked at your Youtube video again, I see that Chris Harris weighed in, was he correct in his assessment of your idle speed? Does the sound go away at 1150?

 

[jconway607]

When I first got my 1100 I noticed much the same sound from my bike. It was a bit of a puzzle. I asked on this forum why a bike of this high a quality would sound, as I said then, " like a clanking worn out tractor" when it was idling. Same situation as you show in the videos, in that when you pull in the clutch lever the sound goes away. Someone here very helpfully gave me a detailed explanation of the mechanics behind it, although unfortunately I can remember exactly what they were. But it seemed to be a part of the normal operations of that engine. I agree it is annoying if you focus on it. For me, I just accept it and don't think about it anymore. Apparently it doesn't hurt the engine, and the bike runs fine. That said, I am often dreaming of someday buying a K75 or other K bike which doesn't do it.

 

[tangoalpha]

Clattering that pronounced isn't just a felt washer omission (my opinion). I suggest removing the starter to see what is the condition of the clutch disk spline system. If the dealer replaced the transmission input spline system at 19K miles, did they verify the alignment between the engine and the transmission? How? That's a very very early failure, and I contend it is from a manufacturing error.

A terminology update - Clutch engaged is when the handle let out. Disengaged is when the clutch lever is pulled in and held. I agree it is confusing.

It's funny... I guess I hadn't realized what I said when making the video, but I was referring to the clutch lever and not the clutch plate itself. My video was of little help in that regard I now know, because after watching it again, I see that you couldn't see me working the lever and it seemed like I was referring to the clutch plate. Seems like you understood what I was trying to say though. Nothing like making a Youtube video to make a spectacle of yourself. Ha! Ha!

I'll look in to the clutch disk spline. Your theory does make sense to me and I appreciate you mentioning that to me.

 

[tangoalpha]

I looked at your Youtube video again, I see that Chris Harris weighed in, was he correct in his assessment of your idle speed? Does the sound go away at 1150?

He did. Chris is really nice and was generous with his time to respond to my email and post a couple comments as to what may be going on. I did start the engine and once I heard the clattering, I revved the engine to at least 1,100 RPM and held it there for a moment and didn't notice any change. I continually held the throttle open and went up the RPM range, stopping at 1,500 RPM by which point, the engine noise was loud enough to drown out any trace of the clattering. So I cannot say whether or not the clattering went away or if was simply inaudible due to normal engine noise consistent with 1,500 RPM operation. I can say for sure though, that I distinctly heard the clattering at 1,100, 1,200, 1,300 RPM. Chris believes that my carbs are not synced and idle is too low. I believe he's right on those two points, so that's certainly something I am addressing.

 

[tangoalpha]

When I first got my 1100 I noticed much the same sound from my bike. It was a bit of a puzzle. I asked on this forum why a bike of this high a quality would sound, as I said then, " like a clanking worn out tractor" when it was idling. Same situation as you show in the videos, in that when you pull in the clutch lever the sound goes away. Someone here very helpfully gave me a detailed explanation of the mechanics behind it, although unfortunately I can remember exactly what they were. But it seemed to be a part of the normal operations of that engine. I agree it is annoying if you focus on it. For me, I just accept it and don't think about it anymore. Apparently it doesn't hurt the engine, and the bike runs fine. That said, I am often dreaming of someday buying a K75 or other K bike which doesn't do it.

Ha! Ha! So glad that I'm not alone. It drives me crazy! It may very well be just that way it is and nothing can be done about it, but I just have a hard time imagining that when the bike was new that it made this clattering noise. Definitely sounds like something is wrong to me. It kinda makes me think of valve clatter, which in this case I know that's not what it is. But still.....drives me nuts.

 

[RPGR90s]

Ha! Ha! So glad that I'm not alone. It drives me crazy! It may very well be just that way it is and nothing can be done about it, but I just have a hard time imagining that when the bike was new that it made this clattering noise. Definitely sounds like something is wrong to me. It kinda makes me think of valve clatter, which in this case I know that's not what it is. But still.....drives me nuts.

FWIW, there is a bearing in the clutch slave cylinder that can be re-greased. I did mine over the winter as I had to replace a gear position indicator anyway. (I was in the neighborhood so to speak......)

My '04 RT with almost 100k is pretty quiet I have to say, and has been since I got it new. Maybe that bearing is contributing to the noise on your bike????

 

[tangoalpha]

FWIW, there is a bearing in the clutch slave cylinder that can be re-greased. I did mine over the winter as I had to replace a gear position indicator anyway. (I was in the neighborhood so to speak......)

My '04 RT with almost 100k is pretty quiet I have to say, and has been since I got it new. Maybe that bearing is contributing to the noise on your bike????

Hmm...sounds like I need to have a discussion with the mechanic who replaced the slave cylinder to see whether or not he replaced the bearing or not. Also I'll need to look at a parts fiche so I can refer to the part you're referring to.

 

[jconway607]

I found the original thread that I started on this subject. The explanation that you see below was kindly submitted to that thread by none other than Paul Glaves. As usual, it covers the subject very well. Hope it helps.



Balance the throttle bodies and the gear lash at idle in neutral will be minimized. But it is normal for Oilheads.

Here is the detailed explanation - written by Oak Okleshen in 1974 about the then new 5 speed /6 gearbox, but it applies even more so to the Oilhead 5 speed gearboxes:

"The noise is the result of an unloaded transmission and the backlash in the mating parts clattering slightly due to variances in engine speeds when at idle. The engine, though we think of it as running at a constant speed, varies in a miniscule amount when it is unloaded and at low speeds near idle. This happens between the power pulsations from the pistons. The flywheel helps to prevent the uneveness but does not cure the problem entirely for it would take a much larger and heavier flywheel than necessary to make the machine run properly and would detract from acceleration performance. As a result, the engine pulsates and the transmission attempts to run at a constant speed. Between pulsations the backlash in the transmission causes the components to clank lightly and cause noise.

The noise can become more noticeable if ...unbalanced left to right. This causes engine pulsations to become more uneven and, hence, there is more noise in the transmission in neutral, clutch engaged."

 

[tangoalpha]

I found the original thread that I started on this subject. The explanation that you see below was kindly submitted to that thread by none other than Paul Glaves. As usual, it covers the subject very well. Hope it helps.



Balance the throttle bodies and the gear lash at idle in neutral will be minimized. But it is normal for Oilheads.

Here is the detailed explanation - written by Oak Okleshen in 1974 about the then new 5 speed /6 gearbox, but it applies even more so to the Oilhead 5 speed gearboxes:

"The noise is the result of an unloaded transmission and the backlash in the mating parts clattering slightly due to variances in engine speeds when at idle. The engine, though we think of it as running at a constant speed, varies in a miniscule amount when it is unloaded and at low speeds near idle. This happens between the power pulsations from the pistons. The flywheel helps to prevent the uneveness but does not cure the problem entirely for it would take a much larger and heavier flywheel than necessary to make the machine run properly and would detract from acceleration performance. As a result, the engine pulsates and the transmission attempts to run at a constant speed. Between pulsations the backlash in the transmission causes the components to clank lightly and cause noise.

The noise can become more noticeable if ...unbalanced left to right. This causes engine pulsations to become more uneven and, hence, there is more noise in the transmission in neutral, clutch engaged."

Excellent! I sure hope and pray that is all that's wrong with the bike. Chris Harris also indicated to me that upon watching the video that my bike was out of sync and below the minimum 1100 RPM idle setting. As an experiment, I did rev the engine to 1,100, then 1,200 and 1,300 RPM and held it there each time to see if the clattering noise went away. It did not and it only became more faint because of the louder noise that is typical with higher RPM's. I was feeling somewhat discouraged by this experiment because I had hoped the sound would go away once the 1100 RPM threshold was reached, but I also understand that increasing the RPM's is only part of the equation and doesn't compensate for throttle bodies that are out of sync. So until the throttle bodies are synced and the idle set correctly, there's no way to know for sure whether or not that is the issue. At this point, rather than attempting a tear down, syncing/idle adjustment seems like the more prudent way to approach this.

 

[edheiser]

Noise

I had a good friend that bought a new Harley in 1991. He rode it for a few days and it made all kinds of racket. Took it back to the dealer, and they said, they all sound like that, it's a Harley! Lots of bikes have clutch clatter, valve train clatter, intake noise. Air cooled bikes don't have any noise baffling from the water jackets. But your racket is really loud and annoying compared to my 2002 RT with 110K miles. I hope following the suggestions already made will help.

 

[brownie]

Idle clatter

I believe there are several of the well known (and late) airhead gurus who swear idle clatter is the proper way to balance carbs......my $0.02

 

[cap]

When the bike is running I occasionally hear a clattering noise that I cannot identify.

At the risk of sounding like a wise-ass, my guess is that if you take it to a dealer, they will tell you one of two things:

1. They all do that, sir.
2. You aren't operating it properly.

My oilheads have all made an amazing array of horrible noises while operating normally. So, the default answer above has some validity. My suggestion is to use ear plugs and play music loudly while you ride. It works for me.

 

[tangoalpha]

At the risk of sounding like a wise-ass, my guess is that if you take it to a dealer, they will tell you one of two things:

1. They all do that, sir.
2. You aren't operating it properly.

My oilheads have all made an amazing array of horrible noises while operating normally. So, the default answer above has some validity. My suggestion is to use ear plugs and play music loudly while you ride. It works for me.

That's funny! Same thing the Harley dealer used to tell me. Oh and....install a set of loud pipes. LOL!