BMW vs American V-Twin Touring

[alancoles]

I ride a lot of roads in Washington State that are incredible roads for either sightseeing or motorcycling. I find it is best to pick which is your preference before you get to those sections...

Good advice Chris, and great roads in your area.

I sent the entire summer of 1976 in and around Leavenworth and Wenatchee (mountain climbing) and then much of 1977 riding my GS750 between Vancouver, BC and Seattle. Like you said, some great roads and great sights to be enjoyed, but not at the same time.

I did a tour on a cruiser for 3 days and couldn't sit for 5 afterwards. Been on several weeklong trips on my RT1100 and RT1200 and I'm good as new with a stop every hour or two to stretch. I really enjoy having a windshield that adjusts on the fly and a bike that is nimble on any type of road.

I'm currently between bikes after a pickup destroyed my 2008 RT. I'm really on the fence between another hexhead, wethead, or maybe a K1600. The big American baggers intrigued me some but after reading some feedback here I think I'd be smarter to stick with a BMW.

I think each person's physic and health (back, etc.) dictates how well they'll do on a H-D.

I have to agree, the Indian (I've ridden the Chieftain and Classic) is one of the best of it's class but like most here, my riding preferences have me looking for the circuitous route as often as not. For that, I used to think that my 2004 R1150RT was exactly what I wanted. I'd tried the camheads and hexheads and didn't feel they offered enough to make me sell my very well modified 1150 (Ohlins F&R, Sargent, etc., etc., etc.). They did offer a bit less weight and a bit more power, but not enough to take me away from what to me was/is a great bike and a great looker. Then along came the wethead. That changed everything for me to the point that my feeling after 10,000+ km is that the RTW is likely the very best all-around bike for touring, sporty riding, and everything in between. If I could only have 1 bike (currently have 6) it would be the RTW. My 2006 Ducati ST3s is a virtual tie through the 1/4 mile with the RTW, and 64 lbs lighter dry (94 wet - bigger tank) along with it's full Olhins makes it a great canyon carver, but it is nowhere near as comfortable in the other venues that I ride.

I think the K1600s are great but geared more toward pure touring and that extra 100 lbs while very well hidden can't completely defy the laws of physics. Again, that brings me back to the RTW for being the best of all worlds.

 

[greenwald]

A pull on the grips is also known as steering. Pulling both equally might prevent a direction change, but reduces the bikes ability to self-stabilize, and is a bad idea in a turn. Footpegs under your butt let you rise up at any time without steering inputs to the handle bars.

 

[36654]

I'm standing up just to stretch some. In 40K miles of cross-US touring, no LEO has ever stopped me to discuss my riding style

While I'm only 6'-1", in the morning, I've frequently do the vertical stretch and, similarly, have never had an issue with law enforcement. Proper safety gear has, probably, saved me from their notice several times, IMHO. But, relative to the vertical stretch, it's really dependent of the bike's geometry and the riders physical build. The footpeg - handlebar geometry of my oilhead RS just didn't accommodate a good vertical stretch. My old K75 did and, surprisingly, the weephole RS does.....

 

[wlueders]

Looking for wisdom from those here who have ownership experience with BMW's RT and either Indian or HD touring offerings. I have owned both the R1200GS and GSA but I am now looking for a more road biased touring alternative with better long range comfort and am leaning towards a new water boxer RT. I don't however wish to eliminate American V-twin alternatives (electra glide or chieftain) without doing my homework first. I have done the HD dealer test rides but find them pretty useless to determine what it would be like to spend multi-day 8-12 hour rides on - maybe the next step is a rental. Regardless I'm looking for opinions on what the more feet forward design of the U.S. bikes does to one's back and hips after extended seat time compared to the RT seating position. I realize that the BMW's are in a different league altogether when it comes to technology and performance. All opinions good, bad and indifferent appreciated. Cheers.

I rode Harleys (and worked at a local dealer for a few years) for several decades. I will echo the sentiments already provided by the respondents. With HDs' last round of chassis improvements to their touring line (in 2014), along with their recent power plant redesign, they've done quite a bit in bringing their heavy touring bikes into their own. My hypothesis for the sudden change in HD's practice of re-visiting their models every 4-5 years is thanks to Polaris Industries (parent to Victory and Indian), whose deep pockets allow proper R&D of the competing marques before release to the consumers.

Where was I? Right, good bikes, bad bikes. They are a different type of ride. My last HD (2013 FLTRU) was like my favorite set of fuzzy slippers. Nice and comfy, but wouldn't want to go on a 5 mile hike in them. That's not what they were made for. My new mule, a '16 K1600GLE, is a completely different type of ride, which was what I was looking for. For me, with the first 1k miles behind me, I've found that my wife and I spend at least double the length of seat time before feeling the need to get off for a break. My commute is 86 miles one way. When I get to work, my hips and tailbone aren't sore. Now with Harleys, you can change the seat, handlebars, add highway pegs, make adjustments to the floorboards, to accommodate you for ideal positioning. All of that costs extra... Same with the motor and suspension. In the end, they'll not handle or have the usable power of the majority of BMWs' offerings. That's not what they were made for.

If I had to pick between the three, it would be Victory 1st, Indian 2nd. Purely for the ease of final belt changes. I've done final belt changes on HD big twins from Evos on up, and it was still a 3-4 hour process that you don't want to do on the side of the road. Not so with the Victory, maybe 30 minutes at best.

 

[36654]

My hypothesis for the sudden change in HD's practice of re-visiting their models every 4-5 years is thanks to Bombardier (parent to Victory and Indian), whose deep pockets allow proper R&D of the competing marques before release to the consumers.

Do you have a link to a website that describes this relationship?

 

[wlueders]

Do you have a link to a website that describes this relationship?

My mistake sir, Polaris Industries. I made the correction in my post.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_Industries

 

[alancoles]

Another option to consider is doing a test ride on the new K1600B when they come out. Suspect they'll be somewhere between an Indian and an RTW in most respects.

 

[Rinty]

If I had a small collection of bikes, one of them would be a SuperGlide Sport. I'd build up a current SuperGlide with Kraus suspension components, raising the chassis up a few inches, to get the needed cornering clearance.

 

[36654]

My mistake sir, Polaris Industries. I made the correction in my post.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_Industries

I thought something was amiss.

But, honestly, along those lines, I was always disappointed that Bombardier (now BRP spin-off) products weren't better than the Japanese offerings. With all the aerospace and engine products in their corporate family, I assumed they would have been a leader.

 

[akbeemer]

I thought something was amiss.

But, honestly, along those lines, I was always disappointed that Bombardier (now BRP spin-off) products weren't better than the Japanese offerings. With all the aerospace and engine products in their corporate family, I assumed they would have been a leader.

I've been impressed with their products. I have a CanAm ATV and had SkiDoo snogos; all have been very reliable. My friends with Spyders have had good luck with their quality as well.

 

[36654]

I've been impressed with their products. I have a CanAm ATV and had SkiDoo snogos; all have been very reliable. My friends with Spyders have had good luck with their quality as well.

Things might be better now. Back in the 70's they (Artic Cat, being much worse) burned a lot of dealers with over stressed engines that were good for one season. Folks raised with Detroit products and farm tractors didn't understand the concept of a seasonable rebuild.

 

[BC1100S]

Things might be better now. Back in the 70's they (Artic Cat, being much worse) burned a lot of dealers with over stressed engines that were good for one season. Folks raised with Detroit products and farm tractors didn't understand the concept of a seasonable rebuild.

All recreational vehicles in the '70s required seasonal rebuilds. No Ski-Doo or Polaris snow machine I ever knew got ridden like a tractor gets used. It was WFO all the time.

Sorry for continued thread de-rail. Dang, that's one New Years resolution broken already!

 

[52184]

Since this thread is already off the rails... don't forget the Harley-Davidson snowmobiles of the 70s. Basically re-engineered and re-badged AMF sleds, they were reliable and aesthetically well-done tho not top performers. They disappeared from the market as part of the unwinding of the AMF debacle.

Best,
DG

 

[flhfxd]

Most previous comments address all the items pertinent to the OP question. My reply is: try to not limit yourself to one bike / brand of bike. Try to have several bikes in the garage at any time. If I'm not severly time limited, I might take the FLH ( it holds way more stuff). If I'm going on a day trip with some of the fellas from work, I'll take the R11RT. If I just want to go for a rumble and feel all badazz I'll take the WideGlide (the most comfortable of my current bikes - IMHO). Etc. Buy good used bikes. They're way less expensive and are easily found.
My $0.02

 

[patm]

I thought something was amiss.

But, honestly, along those lines, I was always disappointed that Bombardier (now BRP spin-off) products weren't better than the Japanese offerings. With all the aerospace and engine products in their corporate family, I assumed they would have been a leader.

BRP, the ex recreative division, was sold in 2004. BRP is controlled by a consortium including the Bombardier family and their descendants but is completely independant from Bombardier Inc.

 

[rxcrider]

...I deliberately stood on my pegs while riding in Ontario in May whenever I went over railroad tracks, or potholes. I believe that both are far safer to traverse while standing and was prepared to go to court over it. We have far too many politicians passing mindless / dumb laws that virtually defy logic. I think there even some states that outlaw standing on the pegs but allow lane-splitting. I have mixed feelings about lane-splitting, but certainly can't conceive that it standing on the pegs to go over a pot hole would be more dangerous than many lane-splitting endeavours.

Like you, I try to make stops every 1.5-2 hours and stretch / walk / etc., but I also find that if I make sure to stand on the pegs for just a moment half to two-thirds the way through those riding periods than my whole body is happier. Often I don't even have to consciously think about it as I try to ride secondary roads vs interstates and there is usually a train track, frost heave, or hump/depression in the road that I prefer to be up on the pegs for....

Couldn't agree more - riders don't stand on the pegs because it gives them less control. I'll sometimes stand on the pegs for miles, especially on gravel or broken pavement

For me, the bike choice would come down to how I fit the cockpit and controls, including the pegs and foot controls. I don't enjoy having my feet in front of me. I can't stand, be it for comfort / stretching, turning or for dealing with road conditions. You can put a lot of control through the pegs if you can weight / pressure them and that doesn't happen when they are out in front of you. That said, plenty of riders are happy sitting on their butt all day, so which rider are you / where do you like your feet. Even once you have your feet where you want them, how is the rest of the cockpit and are the control locations to your liking? Despite loving my R1100RS and being able to shift and brake just fine sitting or standing, I've never felt at home on a R11xxR and I despise the shifter position on the G650Xmoto. The peg location isn't that different, but shifter and brake positioning combined with where the bars put my torso makes my footwork awkward. Find what fits your body and riding style.

 

[akbeemer]

I understand the Repsol/Honda MotoGP team has been doing secret testing of having Marquez and Pedrosa use a feet forward riding position. They are struggling with getting the floor boards positioned correctly to avoid hitting in those pesky corners and have asked that all MotoGP race courses be limited to corners with a radius of 15 degrees or less. Additionally, the FIM is playing hardball with Repsol's proposal to have Marquez wear a do-rag in lieu of a helmet... deemed as an unfair weight advantage.

 

[BC1100S]

...in Ontario, Nova Scotia, New York and elsewhere it is illegal to stand on the the pegs while riding. Because of this I deliberately stood on my pegs while riding in Ontario in May whenever I went over railroad tracks, or potholes.

Quite the rebel, you are.

 

[BC1100S]

I understand the Repsol/Honda MotoGP team has been doing secret testing of having Marquez and Pedrosa use a feet forward riding position. They are struggling with getting the floor boards positioned correctly to avoid hitting in those pesky corners and have asked that all MotoGP race courses be limited to corners with a radius of 15 degrees or less. Additionally, the FIM is playing hardball with Repsol's proposal to have Marquez wear a do-rag in lieu of a helmet... deemed as an unfair weight advantage.

Solution # 1: Caster wheels on the floorboards

Compromise Solution # 2: Marquez will get a Mohawk and grow a scraggly beard to offset the weight advantages of not wearing a helmet

 

[globalrider]

I'm looking for opinions on what the more feet forward design of the U.S. bikes does to one's back and hips after extended seat time compared to the RT seating position.

The few times I've been on those to test ride them for friends, I hated the position, and that on a short run.

Personally, with four "stock" GSes in the stables, I can't see riding anything else for comfort and fuel range. I hate stopping for gas and I've done my share of thousand milers.