Alpha V.3 Classic Digital Ignition System is 180deg out of static time - R60/5

[stevenrankin]

?

So what have you found? Is the problem solved? St.

 

[komalleyjr]

Timing weirdness even with points and condenser

Before you get to the timing chain, do you still have the old points system? Would be an easy to mount the old system and check again. Then let's see what you find checking sparks with the points.

Btw. the cup on the system has to be 90 deg. off because it is a 2:1 ratio crankshaft/camshaft, to cause a 180 degrees off on the flywheel.

/Guenther

All,
Work got in the way of play but i finally got back to this over the weekend. Guenther, you nailed it. I reinstalled the points and condenser and ran a static timing test with a test light and the problem is still present. The engine does appear to be 180 crank degrees out of time. So I will pull the front inner cover and retime the cam and crank gears.

While i have the inner cover off i am going to send it off to be vapor blasted so it will be a little while before I can put everything back together and post another update.

Thanks!
Ken

 

[stevenrankin]

Nice

I am glad you found the problem. It is not difficult when changing a timing chain to mistake one of the marks BMW makes to use for lining up crank and cam.

I am assuming this is what you have found to be your problem, the cam and crank are out of alignment? St.

 

[6322]

Whenever changing the timing chain or pulling the flywheel, I always mark the gears, or flywheel, with a punch mark and a corresponding mark on the engine case, or the end of the crank. Not my idea, but a good one to get things back where they belong.

 

[stevenrankin]

Good idea

Whenever changing the timing chain or pulling the flywheel, I always mark the gears, or flywheel, with a punch mark and a corresponding mark on the engine case, or the end of the crank. Not my idea, but a good one to get things back where they belong.

After I got burned once with the BMW marks, I made a point to make absolutely sure things were lined up properly and scribed a clearly identifiable set of marks on the cam and crank gears. Since then, I have never had a problem, who knows if I do a timing chain replacement on another bike besides mine or not at least, mine are clearly marked. St.

 

[komalleyjr]

Update - could it be wrong cam

I'm updating this post after some more digging into this. By removing the timing chain and crankshaft bearing I was able to confirm that the crankshaft and camshaft are timed together correctly. I reassembled everything and installed the old points and condenser. Turning the engine by hand I confirmed that the intake and exhaust valves are opening and closing correctly through the stroke. The points, though, are opening at the bottom of the pistons' stroke and closing at the top of their stroke, exactly backwards. It really seems like this bike has the wrong cam installed. Does anyone know of a cam from a different year bike that would cause this situation? I may degree the cam that's in the bike to check its exact timing numbers against the timing numbers published for this bike's stock cam to check for differences.

 

[52184]

I'm updating this post after some more digging into this. By removing the timing chain and crankshaft bearing I was able to confirm that the crankshaft and camshaft are timed together correctly. I reassembled everything and installed the old points and condenser. Turning the engine by hand I confirmed that the intake and exhaust valves are opening and closing correctly through the stroke. The points, though, are opening at the bottom of the pistons' stroke and closing at the top of their stroke, exactly backwards. It really seems like this bike has the wrong cam installed. Does anyone know of a cam from a different year bike that would cause this situation? I may degree the cam that's in the bike to check its exact timing numbers against the timing numbers published for this bike's stock cam to check for differences.

As you look at the engine from the front, are you rotating the crank clockwise or counter-clockwise?

Best,
DeVern

 

[komalleyjr]

Clockwise, thanks

 

[guenner]

This all sounds to me like the crankshaft, the camshaft and the notch in the the camshaft are misaligned.

Without having the parts in front of me, my guess is the camshaft is off by 180 degrees to the position of the crankshaft.

Take the timing chain off and try it out. Might be easy with the cylinders off.

 

[komalleyjr]

Guenther, thanks. I removed the timing chain and crankshaft bearing to check alignment and reassembled. The crank and cam are properly aligned.

If they were out of alignment from each other that much, it seems like the valves would be way out of time but they're not. They are opening and closing at the right times during the stroke.

Thanks for the comment.

 

[RPGR90s]

Any chance you have an incorrect starter installed that rotates the engine CCW when viewed from the front?

 

[52184]

Any chance you have an incorrect starter installed that rotates the engine CCW when viewed from the front?

That was where I was headed with my question in post #27. But, the OP has indicated he’s rotating the engine CW when viewed from the front and that the OT mark is appearing in the timing window when the engine is rotated to TDC. Those two factors don’t mesh with seeing the points open and close 180 degrees from what would be expected as the engine was rotated CW as viewed from the front. At this point it’s hard to assess whether the issue is one of assembly error or misinterpretation of markings and such.

But yes, it’s time for the OP to bump the starter and have someone verify that the engine is being rotated CW as viewed from the front.

Best,
DeVern

 

[guenner]

Maybe this youtube video helps to verify that you assembled the crankshaft correctly.

 

[RPGR90s]

That was where I was headed with my question in post #27. But, the OP has indicated he’s rotating the engine CW when viewed from the front and that the OT mark is appearing in the timing window when the engine is rotated to TDC. Those two factors don’t mesh with seeing the points open and close 180 degrees from what would be expected as the engine was rotated CW as viewed from the front. At this point it’s hard to assess whether the issue is one of assembly error or misinterpretation of markings and such.

But yes, it’s time for the OP to bump the starter and have someone verify that the engine is being rotated CW as viewed from the front.

Best,
DeVern

I may have missed it in the previous posts, but I only saw that the OP said he verified correct valve timing when rotating the engine manually in the CW direction.

Maybe he'll chime in and verify that the engine rotates CW as well when engaged with the starter.

 

[guenner]

to be sure that the timing mark on the cam shaft sprocket aligns with the timing mark on the crankshaft sprocket

Did you find markers on both sprockets which looked like genuine markers?

The crankshaft sprocket is in the right position at OT. The camshaft sprocket's Woodruff key should be in 12 o'clock position to match the crankshaft at OT.

And the issue with the starter, I think, is referring to Matt Parkhouse's 'Frankenbike'. He had installed a starter which turned in the wrong direction. BUT...he verified, that by turning the crankshaft manually, the ignition point showed correctly 'at OT'. That is not what we have here!

 

[komalleyjr]

Thanks everyone for the input. The engine is being turned CW both when i turn it by hand and with the starter. While i had the timing chain off I removed the crankshaft bearing and sprocket and confirmed that the key is in the correct position at TDC (9 o'clock if i remember correctly). I could not see the camshaft sprocket key without removing the sprocket which i did not do in part b/c of the effort involved and in part b/c the intake and exhaust valves appear to be actuating at roughly the correct times throughout the 4 stroke cycle. If the cam was 90 deg out of time which is what it would have to be to explain what i am seeing the timing of the valves would be way off.

Regardless, I am going to use a degree wheel and dial to verify that the valves are in fact opening and closing at the exact right times per the specs for the cam that should be in this bike.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions. I really appreciate it!
Ken

 

[guenner]

I could not see the camshaft sprocket key

Hmm! If you hold the crankshaft in position and you turn the camshaft 180 degrees (with chain removed) then you reverse the ignition point. The camshaft lobes are arranged symmetrical because this is a two cylinder motor. So nothing else changes.

I wouldn't be surprised if the marker on the camshaft sprocket confirms that.

Btw. Ken I didn't realize immediately that you posted TWO videos on youtube and thought "oh, another guy with the same problem".

 

[komalleyjr]

Guenther,
Yeah I posted the second video with the head removed so you could easily see where the piston was in its stroke when the plug fired.

You may be onto something but I will say that the mark on the camshaft was really easy to see. The only thing I could think is if someone put the sprocket back on the camshaft without the key installed in the key way but that seems unlikely.

I'l think about this some more but It seems like the intake and exhaust valves actuation would be off from what would be expected if the cam was 180 degrees out of time from the crank. But maybe the differences are small enough that I can't see it by just watching the valves. If so, degreeing the cam should point this out.

Thanks.

 

[guenner]

Some more from the German forum:

They strictly say, if the camshaft (CMS) sprocket is the original sprocket and the mark on the CMS and the mark on the crankshaft (CRS) are aligned, the plate with the points or the advance mechanism is mounted off by "90" degrees.

And if the CMS is off by 90 degrees, it is easier to turn the CRS by 180 degrees instead of turning CMS.

 

[komalleyjr]

Alpha V.3 Classic Digital Ignition System is 180deg out of static time - R60/5 SOLVED

Hi Everyone,
I was finally able to solve this issue.

After months of ghost chasing, I installed a degree wheel to the front of the crankshaft. With the Alpha ignition timing pickup cup and plate adjusted to the mid-point of their adjustment ranges I was able to determine that the ignition was firing at 23deg BBDC when rotating the engine by hand at the crankshaft and at 35deg BTDC when rotating the engine with the starter - no way was the bike was going to run like that. Fortunately there was enough adjustment in the timing cup and plate to bring the engine into spec, firing at 9deg BTDC.

I am new to this and did not even know that degree wheels were a thing, but there is no way I would have been able to get the engine in time without one.

Overall, I love the Alpha ignition product; the bike runs very strong. I did send MotorradElektrik a suggestion that they add a tip to their website about using a degree wheel.

Thanks to all who provided responses and ideas.


Thanks!
Ken