2024 R1250RT - gutless starting from stop?

[pauls1150]

That actually makes sense - too-soft mapping, so pre-loading the engine should tell the computer "More Power" (in a Tim Allen voice).

 

[rhenriksen]

Sir, you are not alone in your initial assessment of that gutless feeling while getting underway from a stop !! (I actually joined the bmwmoa today just so I could respond to your concern that I share!) On my new '23 RT I experienced (and still do to some extent) the sensation of a boggy engine when trying to roll away with brisk efficiency (but by no means aggressively). And my buddy who also has a '23 RT that replaced his 2010 RT has shared the same feeling - the '23 bikes feel identical. Now, all of our previous many bikes of various makes/models have had traditional cable throttles (like your Bandit), where the twist grip movement tends to be very linear with the carb or FI throttle plates, meaning you rotate the grip by, say, 10% and you get 10% of throttle opening, and that linear relationship remains the same regardless of whether you're starting off from a stop or are underway and in a higher gear. (Yes, FI fuel mapping can sometimes vary based on gear, but the cabled relationship of twist grip to throttle opening remains the same.) In contrast, the RT and many newer bikes employ ECU-controlled TBW (Throttle By Wire) where the rider's input to the twist grip is electronically sent to the ECU which can alter the response of the FI throttle plates based on many parameters including bike speed, engine speed, engine load, gear selection, traction control etc. Thus, your twist grip rotation of 10% may result in more or less than 10% throttle plate opening, depending on conditions and the mapping that the developers chose for the various conditions. All that to say, I believe the "gutless" feeling we perceive is a result of overly 'soft' mapping of the TBW from a standstill, presumable to prevent overly potent engine torque from coming into play from a dead stop. (Possibly some lean fuel mapping may be exacerbating the issue.) But it is too benign; As you've described, even a substantial twist of the throttle grip as you're easing out the clutch from a stop just won't induce the expected power and the bike falters, whereas that same twist of the throttle will accelerate the bike spryly if underway in a taller gear even at low rpm. I find it irritating, and even a bit disconcerting when conditions require a rapid rollout, but some mitigation is at hand: I have found, rather than revving the engine and slipping the clutch for a brisk take off, I get a more effective start by making a conscious effort to ease out the clutch and load the engine first before giving it any throttle - the engine seems more willing to respond as desired. It's a subtle difference but after a while it becomes second nature and it's not as bothersome (until you're switching back and forth with other 'normally-responsive' bikes ;-) I hope this helps and sorry for what many might perceive as an over-explanation.

It's reassuring to hear I'm not alone! I agree, I hope it's an engine mapping/throttle by wire issue, rather than a mechanical issue where engine itself.

I'll experiment with the clutch release/engine preload, as you described, thanks. The bike is undergoing two software updates this week @ the dealer; no idea if that's just for the TFT, or could affect the fueling/throttle by wire, as well.

 

[wbrownell9]

The OP may already have tried this but I've not been able to find it in this thread - did you wind up in "rain" mode by any chance? I find "rain" is sluggish (and of course I'm such an expert rider that I have no need of such electronic frippery anyway /s); "road" does everything I need it to; and "sport" mode aggravates my carpal tunnel because repeated minor adjustments are SO minor. YMMV

 

[rhenriksen]

The OP may already have tried this but I've not been able to find it in this thread - did you wind up in "rain" mode by any chance? I find "rain" is sluggish (and of course I'm such an expert rider that I have no need of such electronic frippery anyway /s); "road" does everything I need it to; and "sport" mode aggravates my carpal tunnel because repeated minor adjustments are SO minor. YMMV

Never hurts to ask, thank you.

My initial riding impressions were all in road mode. Changing to Dynamic made... *Maybe* a small improvement in acceleration from a standing start.

I only switched to rain mode after a couple of weeks of riding, during a 3 hour ride through intermittent rain on my way to Wimberley from Houston.

 

[rhenriksen]

Well, it's taken a while, but just got back from a factory demo ride event @ Wild West Motoplex. The 2025 RT demo bike had a *lot* more get-up-and-go than my bike. I'm convinced now that mine has some issues - loss of compression is my guess, but that's subject to a compression test & leak down.

What's annoying is that the service department, when I first walked in & told them of my concerns back in Dec or Jan, just blew me off. "That's just how thos engines are." You'd think they'd test ride it? I'm used to dealer service advisors padding a work ticket with every possible bit of gratuitous work possible.

Besides refusing to be blown off on my next visit, any magic words or incantations anyone might suggest to get them to take me seriously? Always happy to learn new tricks!

 

[pauls1150]

Lie just a little bit... "I rode a demo bike and a friend's bike, and neither one was anything like mine."
Sometimes the "service manager" is a tech who didn't graduate the school....
To my mind, getting blown off by anybody at a dealership warrants a note to BMWNA. But I've been known to be occasionally somewhat nasty.

 

[bunkster]

Well, it's taken a while, but just got back from a factory demo ride event @ Wild West Motoplex. The 2025 RT demo bike had a *lot* more get-up-and-go than my bike. I'm convinced now that mine has some issues - loss of compression is my guess, but that's subject to a compression test & leak down.

What's annoying is that the service department, when I first walked in & told them of my concerns back in Dec or Jan, just blew me off. "That's just how thos engines are." You'd think they'd test ride it? I'm used to dealer service advisors padding a work ticket with every possible bit of gratuitous work possible.

Besides refusing to be blown off on my next visit, any magic words or incantations anyone might suggest to get them to take me seriously? Always happy to learn new tricks!

See if you can demo a 2025 bike at your original dealer; If the difference is noticeable as before, have a tech test the two bikes. As I mentioned previously, both my 2023RT and my buddy's 2023RT felt identical to us in exhibiting the sluggish takeoff, and both bikes have plenty of responsive 'get-up-and-go' in all other riding conditions once underway. I will try a 2025 model if I can get my hands on one to compare. I'd be willing to bet that any difference is a result of software mapping, and perhaps our 2023 models could be updated since I believe there is no difference in mechanicals from 2023 to 2025. Looking forward to hearing your results on this.

 

[rhenriksen]

See if you can demo a 2025 bike at your original dealer; If the difference is noticeable as before, have a tech test the two bikes. As I mentioned previously, both my 2023RT and my buddy's 2023RT felt identical to us in exhibiting the sluggish takeoff, and both bikes have plenty of responsive 'get-up-and-go' in all other riding conditions once underway. I will try a 2025 model if I can get my hands on one to compare. I'd be willing to bet that any difference is a result of software mapping, and perhaps our 2023 models could be updated since I believe there is no difference in mechanicals from 2023 to 2025. Looking forward to hearing your results on this.

I'm confused - my post that you replied to specified that I *did* ride a 2025 demo RT today... Am I missing something?

 

[bunkster]

I was under the impression that your recent demo was at a different dealership than the one where they were ignoring your concerns.

Did the 2025 bike feel markedly different in on-the-road driving conditions beyond just rolling away from a stop? On my bike (and my buddy's), only the balk from a stop is disconcerting - once underway, the performance is quite robust at any rpm, in any gear, in road or dynamic mode (which is what makes the standing start issue so notable).

 

[rhenriksen]

I was under the impression that your recent demo was at a different dealership than the one where they were ignoring your concerns.

Did the 2025 bike feel markedly different in on-the-road driving conditions beyond just rolling away from a stop? On my bike (and my buddy's), only the balk from a stop is disconcerting - once underway, the performance is quite robust at any rpm, in any gear, in road or dynamic mode (which is what makes the standing start issue so notable).

Yes, throttle response was noticeably sharper in roll-on situations, as well as from a standing start.

 

[bunkster]

Sounds like your bike's issue is more severe, and I re-read to realize you have had software updates and, if I'm understanding correctly, the bike was not brand new (?). Hopefully it's something relatively simple like a faulty sensor. In any event, the dealership should certainly be taking your concerns more seriously.

 

[rhenriksen]

Thanks. When I had a 1996 911 (last generation of air cooled), the conventional wisdom about those engines was that it was normal for them to blow out some blue smoke from the exhaust upon the first start of the day - that oil from the cylinder walls had pooled in each cylinder.

This is my first boxer engine in a motorcycle; is it normal for there to be a faint smell of oil smoke? It's the other corroborating symptoms that has me concerned about either a problem with rings, or valve seals.

 

[bunkster]

Others will know much more, but that seemed a common occurrence on older airheads (70's/80's), coming from the left (downhill) cyl after sitting overnight on the sidestand. I'm not aware of it being an issue on newer oilheads or wetheads.

 

[jono]

Thanks. When I had a 1996 911 (last generation of air cooled), the conventional wisdom about those engines was that it was normal for them to blow out some blue smoke from the exhaust upon the first start of the day - that oil from the cylinder walls had pooled in each cylinder.

This is my first boxer engine in a motorcycle; is it normal for there to be a faint smell of oil smoke? It's the other corroborating symptoms that has me concerned about either a problem with rings, or valve seals.

I usually start my '22 R1250RT in the garage and can smell anything unusual. On a few occasions when I left the bike on the side stand there was a puff of smoke and an oily smell for a few minutes before it cleared. When I've left my bike on the center stand, it has never happened. I put it up to a very small amount of oil seeping by the rings. My '85 K100RS smoked a huge amount when left on the side stand as did all my friend's K100's, so these very small incidents don't bother me at all.

 

[RPGR90s]

Thanks. When I had a 1996 911 (last generation of air cooled), the conventional wisdom about those engines was that it was normal for them to blow out some blue smoke from the exhaust upon the first start of the day - that oil from the cylinder walls had pooled in each cylinder.

This is my first boxer engine in a motorcycle; is it normal for there to be a faint smell of oil smoke? It's the other corroborating symptoms that has me concerned about either a problem with rings, or valve seals.

I am now on my fourth new RT (1993 Airhead), 2002 R1150RT, 2004 R1150RT and 2024 RT) and have never seen blue smoke on start-up even when left on the kickstand over-nite. I did have a 1973 R75/5 that would do that on occasion, but that engine had 150k and needed a rebuild. Conventional wisdom says that the left cylinder can collect a small amount of oil if left on the kickstand so it's not un-heard of at start-up.
Come to think of it, my '74 R90s (that now has 145k) never smoked either.

 

[r0ckrat]

I've had mine (2016R) blow a puff of smoke when left for extended periods of time on the side stand. But much longer than "overnight".

 

[PGlaves]

I've had mine (2016R) blow a puff of smoke when left for extended periods of time on the side stand. But much longer than "overnight".

To make a short story long the early K100 and K75 bikes were notorious for smoking after being parked on the sidestand; thus the name Old Smokey for my '86 K75. It was caused by oil seeping through the gaps in the piston rings, especially if they lined up near the bottom of one or more of the pistons.. Eventually BMW fitted small pins in the piston grooves to prevent the ring gaps from lining up.

Fast forward to the Oilhead bikes. If parked on the side stand the left cylinder is on the downhill side so oil can seep through the gaps in the rings if they line up near the bottom of the piston. When assembled it is proper to arrange the ring gaps at 120 degree intervals but over time, while running, the rings can rotate in the piston grooves. So some of these bikes, some times, may allow oil to seep past the rings into the combustion chamber and then they will smoke on startup: some bikes, some times.