2016 R1200RS No Spark, Finally Resolved! BAD DME!

[vwsandman]

Hello,
Coming home from work the other day and was using some maximum throttle. Engine started to miss and sputter, check engine light on the dash. Pulled over and the bike will not re-start. Just cranks. GS-911 stored codes Indicated that both coils were shorted to ground? I kick myself for not saving the 4 codes! I cleared the codes, and tried to start. The bike would not start. The spark plugs have less then 500 miles on them, but I bought two new plugs and recieved two used coils from Ebay from a 2018 R1200RS. Still no start/spark. I did do the cam alignment and valve clearance checks this spring and the bike has been running great, better than I can remember. I can smell and see fuel from the cylinders when I crank without the spark plugs installed. Seems to have good compression as well (I can check this too) Bike spins over easily and makes no odd sounds. When Online trying to start the bike with GS-911 connected, I can see that the ignition timing is @ around 180 degrees CW? Is this right? Could I have a bad timing sensor? I still have no fault codes even though the bike will not start. I have 12V at the coil connectors to ground and a pulsing voltage when I crank. I have cleaned and tightened the ground connections. With the coils connected and the spark plugs grounded to the engine, I should see a spark at the plugs when cranking but i dont see anything at all. The only thing I can think of at this point is that the timing is way off (it should still spark though right?) or the ECU outputs for the two coils are bad? A few days of google searches has resulted in nothing even close to anyone having a similar problem either. The thought of taking this to the dealer makes me sick to my stomach.... Any ideas?

 

[omega man]

Welcome to the forum!
My almost always first question is battery age/condition and has the voltage been checked WHILE cranking?
OM

 

[jandhumphreyme]

I'm not sure what you've you got for wires to the coil, I'm thinking three, battery voltage, ground, and signal wire. Using a small pin (so you don't spread connector) check to see with ignition on if you have battery voltage at the connector, also check ground. You can also check signal wire for short to ground. Did computer throw any more codes?

 

[GTRider]

I’d suggest stop where you are at and go back and check the cam timing work you did earlier. There is a reluctor on the end of the exhaust camshaft that must be positioned correctly, and it’s held in place by only a clamping screw. If that checks ok, then have the battery load-tested, check connections to the coils, and with the plugs firmly grounded crank the engine and check for spark. And please report back on those checks.

Best,
DeVern

 

[vwsandman]

Thank you for the replies! I'm going to check the Reluctor placement tomorow. I'll put the bike up on the lift and open the valve cover and check that along with the cam timing as well. Easy enough to lock it at TDC at the flywheel and see if the CAM lock tool fits) (I have all of the special tools for this job) The battery is a one year old Shorai LioFe battery with more CCA than a stock Yuasa Battery. I have that on the special Shorai BMS now. On the leads to the coils I have 12VDC on pin 3 and 0.0 ohms continuity to ground on pin 2 (Brown center wire). When I try to start the bike I sometimes see a pulse signal on the pin 1 wire. I might get out my Osciliscope to check that better tomorrow. I suspect that the ECU is seeing that the relucter (cam shaft posistion) does not match the crankshaft timing and does not even bother with trying to make a spark. From what I can tell there are two sensors, a camshaft sensor and the crankshaft sensor. I would have thought this descrepency would have been enough to throw a code in the ECU but not yet anyway. I found some other dodgy things, (Loose valve cover bolts, ect.) on the left side of the engine from when I was in there checking the cam and valve lash. As I was dealing with my Prostrate Cancer Diagnosis at the time, I suspect my mind was not focused on what I was doing. I'm glad to say I am prostrate cancer free now and my mind is alot more clear and focused now! The more I think this through, my money is on the relucter wheel slipping combined with the high RPM I was doing (don't ask....don't you have a 2022 S1000RR with M package for things like that?) if it is far enough "out of whack" that would be the cause of the no spark. ECU is probably thinking "what are you trying to do now?"

I was unable to get any spark with any of the five coils and four spark plugs I have to test with. Using the only electrical diagram I have in my Haynes manual, I will OHM out the wires to the ecu from the coils as well. Hopefully the pin out numbers in there are accurate enough. I was able to see the ignition and coil signals from GS 911 in a graph but have no reference to compare that data to.

I'll report back on what I find ASAP.

 

[jandhumphreyme]

Unless you were bouncing the rev limiter for a few minutes I doubt very much you got the rev's high enough to do anything. I would not expect a loose reluctor to throw a code indicating the circuit is grounded. It's unfortunate we don't have those codes, you've not found them anywhere on line have you? The circuit will make a spark when the reluctor pass's the sensor, breaking the field. I've never heard of an ECU that will compare cam/crank positions and make any decisions, it will retard signal to match fueling map but it's not smart enough or fast enough to compare cam/crank relational positions. A mechanical check of the sensor is easy enough to do, you could also hook up your scope and check the signal circuit to the coils, in time or not you should still see a clean signal. Have you load tested the battery?

Provided the code description is an accurate indication of the fault, what else on the ignition circuit could cause a ground condition? Side stand switch wonky? Clutch switch wonky? I'd expect to see no voltage at the pins if switches were involved.

Interesting, will ponder some more, Good luck.

 

[omega man]

For your consideration-
I have found that (explained via a car engine) that the magnetic pickups- reluctor wheel sensors are pretty important. It’s not like the old days where there was a came lobe feature to close points and fire a spark.
The crank and cam sensors let the engine “know” where it is in the relationship of which piston is at TDC (top dead center) and when spark should be supplied for combustion.
Without the little cam lobe that used to mechanically “link” the points to piston firing position, the crank/cam sensors are used.
Being that it seems that it’s usually real reliable, the thought of adjusting points isn’t thought of much.
A related video-

HTH

OM

 

[vwsandman]

I was in such a hurry when I got the bike off the trailer (my wife came and picked me up when I called for a lift when it died) to plug in the GS911 to see what happened that I completly forgot to save the codes.....I was just thinking, clear the faults and see if it restarts.......sorry. Hopefully it's just the reluctor! I'm headed out to the garage before it gets too hot out.

 

[vwsandman]

Hello Everyone!
Well here is what I found out. As you can see in the photo below, with the flywheel locked at TDC using the BMW timing tool set, the reluctor wheel for the CamShaft position sensor is in the correct position and I can confirm that the bolt was tight and secure. Good and Bad I guess for the problem?

I then proeceeded to ring out the coil wiring and confirm that the electrical diagram in my Haynes manual was accurate other than a wire color on Cyl 2 pin #3

For reference on a 2016 BMW R1200RS the coil pin out is:

DME​	Wire Color​	COIL​	Function​	Status​
DME Conn #1/Pin #26	Greeen/White Stripe	Coil #1 Pin #3	+12VDC	Good Continuity, no short to GND
N/C	Brown	Coil #1 Pin #2	GND	Good Continuity to GND
DME Conn #1/ Pin #31	Black/Red Stripe	Coil #1 Pin #1	IgnitionTrigger	Good Continuity, no short to GND
DME Conn #1/ Pin #27	Green/Red Stripe	Coil #1 Pin #3	+12VDC	Good Continuity, no short to GND
N/C	Brown	Coil #2 Pin #2	GND	Good Continuity to GND
DME Conn #1/ Pin #32	Black/Red Stripe	Coil #2 Pin #1	Ignition Trigger	Good Continuity, no short to GND

 

[vwsandman]

I will next button it back up and check the wires and signals from both the Crank Position and CAM Position Sensors using the electrical schematics in the Haynes manual, and my GS 911. I doubt the Ground Control Module has anything to do with this circuit looking at the Electrical Schematics....I hope the issue does not end up being the ECU!

 

[vwsandman]

Update: Cam position sensor wires to DME check out. Crank sensor is buried away on the front upper part of the motor and would require extensive work to get to that. I should be able to verify that signal with GS911 without having to tear in to it that deep. No smoking gun yet.

 

[r0ckrat]

When you did the cam timing check, did you have the proper cam chain tension? @boxflyer has a video outlining both his methods and tools, and there is apparently a specific BMW tool that replaces the cam chain tensioner while performing the timing check.

No experience doing the job, but if the chain wasn't tensioned to the proper procedure, it could throw off the timing check.

IIRC, it was: lock cyl at TDC, tension chain to a specific value, then check cam timing.

 

[GTRider]

Having those codes would be really useful. I’m guessing that in the future you’ll probably immediately save or print the results of any autoscan; water under the bridge at this point. I suspect at this point you will need to have the bike connected to the dealer’s diagnostic computer—it can see more deeply into the electronics modules than the GS-911 and may find a clue as to what exactly happened or went wrong when those codes were triggered.

Best,
DeVern

 

[vwsandman]

When you did the cam timing check, did you have the proper cam chain tension? @boxflyer has a video outlining both his methods and tools, and there is apparently a specific BMW tool that replaces the cam chain tensioner while performing the timing check.

No experience doing the job, but if the chain wasn't tensioned to the proper procedure, it could throw off the timing check.

IIRC, it was: lock cyl at TDC, tension chain to a specific value, then check cam timing.

Yes, I have all of the tools in the kit (plus stuff for R9T motors) along with special spacer from Box Flyer here:

Bike was running great since I did the work this spring/early summer...until it wasn't at all

 

[vwsandman]

Having those codes would be really useful. I’m guessing that in the future you’ll probably immediately save or print the results of any autoscan; water under the bridge at this point. I suspect at this point you will need to have the bike connected to the dealer’s diagnostic computer—it can see more deeply into the electronics modules than the GS-911 and may find a clue as to what exactly happened or went wrong when those codes were triggered.

Best,
DeVern

Yes, it would have been. Another one of my many DOH! moments. I am going to dig a little deeper right now and see if it starts.....nope!

Well folks, I think I have exhausted my options from at home...time to trailer it off to a dealer.....argh.....

I had Cam and Crank RPM in GS911. CAM speed was half the speed of the engine as I would expect. Still No check engine lights or faults in ECU. Cranks hard and strong, no spark or even the hint of a sputter. Can smell fuel and the plugs are wet when removed, so it is getting fuel. Has good compression as well. None of the side stand or other switches are on when monitored in GS911, if they were I do not believe it would even crank over. My gut is telling me it is the ECU.....what ever it is, it is likely to not be a cheap fix.

Poor thing! Looks like I am stuck riding the missile for awhile!

EDIT: Apointment made at "local" dealer. They won't be able to look at until Friday, September 13th.....sounds about right to me as this thing is cursed anyway.... LOL. Glad I have my S1000RR to ride in the mean time. I have to be honest, I wasn't riding this bike much anymore since I got the S1000RR. ADD on Helibars and a Sargent Seat and that thing is all day comfy for me. I have the SW Motech Blaze Saddlebargs so it is my new SUPER Sport tourer.

Poor R1200RS!

 

[jandhumphreyme]

Well I guess we'll all find out sooner or later, great job in documenting and checking things over. Please follow up be very interested in this resolution.

 

[vwsandman]

Hello Everyone!
So I couldn't sleep. And I felt like I hadn't done enough to test the system. Are my Coils actually Good? What about my Spark Plugs? How can I test them to be sure? Well, thankfully we live in an age with a thing called the internet! With a bit of research, I learned that there are basically three types of Coil on Plug (COP) systems. A 2 wire system, a 3 wire system and a 4 wire system. We have a 3 wire COP in the Wethead motor.

The 3 wire COP are pretty basic and consist of:

PIN #​	Function​	Voltage/Signal​
#1​	Trigger​	Pulsed +5VDC From DME (ECM) Pin 31/32​
#2​	Ground for Primary side of Coil​	Primary Ground​
#3​	Primary Coil Positive + Voltage​	+12VDC from DME Pin 26/27​

So, I dug around in my bits and found some VW "repair wires" that had female pins very similar to what are on the OEM coil connector. I connected pin one to my regulated lab power supply with a toggle switch to +5VDC. This is the Trigger signal to the COP. I then connected the center pin, #2 of the coil to GND, and the last pin, #3 was connected to the power supply set to 12VDC. BAM! Coil test unit! When the coil gets a pulsed +5VDC signal from the DME (my toggle switch) the field expands in the primary side of the COP and the collapses in the COP via the transistor circuit in the COP which recieves this +5VDC pulse. This is what creates the spark on the Secondary side of the COP to the spark plug which I had inserted into the COP and connected the body of the spark plug to GND as well.

I only tested two of the five coils that I have, but both generated a fat, big blue spark when tested in this manner. I will test all of the COP's and Four spark plugs that I have before going to the dealer.

Which leads me back to the DME unit being faulty or not outputing the pulsed +5DC trigger signal to each coil for reasons I can't determine. My GS 911 does not dig that deep. I could do a deep dive into ITSA+ but I don't know if I have the GAS to do that at this point....

A good video on the Three wire COP can be seen here: 3 Wire COP Video

 

[LFarling]

When you did the cam timing check, did you have the proper cam chain tension? @boxflyer has a video outlining both his methods and tools, and there is apparently a specific BMW tool that replaces the cam chain tensioner while performing the timing check.

No experience doing the job, but if the chain wasn't tensioned to the proper procedure, it could throw off the timing check.

IIRC, it was: lock cyl at TDC, tension chain to a specific value, then check cam timing.

THIS! If you did not have the cam chain in tension nothing you are looking at is right. I see you posted the tool pic but did you have the cam chain tension on?

 

[omega man]

Impressive that you are able to go so “in depth” through the diagnostic trouble.
Not for nothing, I think the last time I saw someone going into such depth, the no start / no spark condition turned out to be something simple like the “Kill” switch or the battery.
OM

 

[vwsandman]

THIS! If you did not have the cam chain in tension nothing you are looking at is right. I see you posted the tool pic but did you have the cam chain tension on?

Yes, I did. The bike was running perfect for several months after the CAM timing/Valve clearance checks were done this spring. Much smoother, better starting, felt way more spicy. Valve ticking sounds were no longer noticable, I was very pleased with how it was running after the work I did.
And then I decided to stop light race some young kid with some little sport bike and went a little overboard.....the rest is history now...