Shop knowledge - where are you?

motodan · Nov 26, 2019

Interesting search for knowledge today. Had to loosen shift lever pivot on a F850GSA this morning, in order to remove holder pin from foot peg being replaced. Job done, now needed a torque value to assure pivot bolt was accurately fastened. No such value available in owner's manual so called dealer. 15 minutes on phone with three individuals, when finally a value was given. Value didn't sound at all correct...eventually called them back and received same value...assured it was correct. Still not believing it I ended up calling three other dealers, all BMW exclusive dealers that I've bought from.. Here are the values I received:

19 Newton meters
41 Newton meters
41 Newton meters
200 Newton meters

That 200 Nm came from the first dealer, the selling dealer. That's 148 lb/ft...that's NUTS! Plus I was assured a second time - it was correct!! I question anything on that bike calling for such a high torque...rear wheel nut is only 74 lb/ft.

Not sure where the 19 came from, but settled on 41 (30 lb/ft).

Will be glad when BMW finally gets a service manual out and hope my new service shop will be better informed.

Omega Man · Nov 26, 2019

I'm partial to the "mechanic's feel". This is based on tightning fasteners in similar situations. I really only think about-

is for head bolts and the like. This has worked for more than a half century :deal

I do have a raft of manuals.....just in case :wave

OM

GoldDog · Nov 26, 2019

Motodan said:
Interesting search for knowledge today. Had to loosen shift lever pivot on a F850GSA this morning, in order to remove holder pin from foot peg being replaced. Job done, now needed a torque value to assure pivot bolt was accurately fastened. No such value available in owner's manual so called dealer. 15 minutes on phone with three individuals, when finally a value was given. Value didn't sound at all correct...eventually called them back and received same value...assured it was correct. Still not believing it I ended up calling three other dealers, all BMW exclusive dealers that I've bought from.. Here are the values I received:

19 Newton meters
41 Newton meters
41 Newton meters
200 Newton meters

That 200 Nm came from the first dealer, the selling dealer. That's 148 lb/ft...that's NUTS! Plus I was assured a second time - it was correct!! I question anything on that bike calling for such a high torque...rear wheel nut is only 74 lb/ft.

Not sure where the 19 came from, but settled on 41 (30 lb/ft).

Will be glad when BMW finally gets a service manual out and hope my new service shop will be better informed.

All bolts have torque values depending on size. Most manufacturers of fasteners assign a value where the bolt just starts to stretch. If you can't find a proper torque, a chart like this will get you in the ballpark.

https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/bolts/Metric-Recommended-Torque.aspx

motodan · Nov 26, 2019

GoldDog said:
All bolts have torque values depending on size. Most manufacturers of fasteners assign a value where the bolt just starts to stretch. If you can't find a proper torque, a chart like this will get you in the ballpark.

https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/bolts/Metric-Recommended-Torque.aspx

That is a good chart if one knows the actual bolt size. In this case the bolt size is not actually known. As pix shows the head is a T-60 Torx, why BMW found it necessary to use that head I'm not sure. However, the torque value is 30 lb/ft, not the 149 lb/ft dealer stated. Think they thought with a T-60 head it must be a BIG bolt and just threw out the 149? :scratch

akbeemer · Nov 26, 2019

If I were a dealer I would be very hesitant to answer a question such as the one you asked over the phone. Too much chance for misunderstandings and resulting damage.

I can only guess who came up with the numbers you were provided at the different dealerships.

36654 · Nov 26, 2019

Motodan said:
Interesting search for knowledge today. Had to loosen shift lever pivot on a F850GSA this morning, in order to remove holder pin from foot peg being replaced. Job done, now needed a torque value to assure pivot bolt was accurately fastened. No such value available in owner's manual so called dealer. 15 minutes on phone with three individuals, when finally a value was given. Value didn't sound at all correct...eventually called them back and received same value...assured it was correct. Still not believing it I ended up calling three other dealers, all BMW exclusive dealers that I've bought from.. Here are the values I received:

19 Newton meters
41 Newton meters
41 Newton meters
200 Newton meters

That 200 Nm came from the first dealer, the selling dealer. That's 148 lb/ft...that's NUTS! Plus I was assured a second time - it was correct!! I question anything on that bike calling for such a high torque...rear wheel nut is only 74 lb/ft.

Not sure where the 19 came from, but settled on 41 (30 lb/ft).

Will be glad when BMW finally gets a service manual out and hope my new service shop will be better informed.

I'm guessing the 200 was 200 kg-cm. In standard units, that's ~19 N-m.

motodan · Nov 26, 2019

36654 said:
I'm guessing the 200 was 200 kg-cm. In standard units, that's ~19 N-m.

Maybe, but when I said, on the second call, that's over 140 lb/ft, he said "well, you don't want that to fall off".

motodan · Nov 26, 2019

akbeemer said:
If I were a dealer I would be very hesitant to answer a question such as the one you asked over the phone. Too much chance for misunderstandings and resulting damage.

I can only guess who came up with the numbers you were provided at the different dealerships.

If it wasn't for there being only one bolt holding the shift lever on and a BMW dealership being the only source for this information (since there isn't a service manual available yet), and all contacts were with supposedly highly qualified service departments, I might agree.

pappy35 · Nov 26, 2019

Motodan said:
Maybe, but when I said, on the second call, that's over 140 lb/ft, he said "well, you don't want that to fall off".

And that's a clue strongly suggesting you should never bring your bike there for service.

GoldDog · Nov 26, 2019

Motodan said:
That is a good chart if one knows the actual bolt size. In this case the bolt size is not actually known. As pix shows the head is a T-60 Torx, why BMW found it necessary to use that head I'm not sure. However, the torque value is 30 lb/ft, not the 149 lb/ft dealer stated. Think they thought with a T-60 head it must be a BIG bolt and just threw out the 149?

Very true. I'll bet you're right. Big Torx, big bolt. Not always.

36654 · Nov 27, 2019

Motodan said:
Maybe, but when I said, on the second call, that's over 140 lb/ft, he said "well, you don't want that to fall off".

I suggest a different shop for service

stevenrankin · Nov 27, 2019

Dealer

Could the dealer's answers be cases of A, You caught me at a bad time?, B. You didn't buy the bike from me, why are you bothering me? C. I don't have time to answer questions for people who do their own work, taking money out of my pocket? D. Call BMW don't bother me, I am not in the business of answering questions for people who do their own repairs. I am here for my customers. E. If you don't have a proper manual, why are you working on an expensive bike?

I could continue the thread above to most likely the end of the alphabet.

Playing devil's advocate, how many of us would like to be in business answering calls like the above? St.

motodan · Nov 27, 2019

STEVENRANKIN said:
Could the dealer's answers be cases of A, You caught me at a bad time?, B. You didn't buy the bike from me, why are you bothering me? C. I don't have time to answer questions for people who do their own work, taking money out of my pocket? D. Call BMW don't bother me, I am not in the business of answering questions for people who do their own repairs. I am here for my customers. E. If you don't have a proper manual, why are you working on an expensive bike?

I could continue the thread above to most likely the end of the alphabet.

Playing devil's advocate, how many of us would like to be in business answering calls like the above? St.

Well, A) they were all very forthcoming and not put off, according to their voice attitude. B) I've bought bikes from all four of the dealerships contacted, over the years. One was in Michigan, one in Missouri, one in New York and last in Illinois. C) Giving out a torque value, that isn't available elsewhere didn't seem to bother any of them...in fact, all said call back if you have any other questions. D) Pretty much same as C however, I was a customer and/or could be a potential customer - again and E) No one has a manual because BMW hasn't made one available and I can work on the bike regardless of cost..I just needed a torque value - A CORRECT TORQUE VALUE. Or I could ride over to the nearest dealer who's only 160 miles away to ask at the counter what the torque value is. Phone call was quite appropriate...the incorrect answers are the point here

pglaves · Nov 27, 2019

In the course of wrenching our own bikes over the past 40 years I can't even count the number of times I called a dealership - usually Engle Motors in Kansas City - seeking technical advice. I never ever got the run around or any sense of resentment that I called. When Voni's R1100RS broke a cam chain tensioning rail in the mid '90s I called a half dozen dealerships and none of them did anything but be helpful, even though none of them had split the cases to make this repair.

6322 · Nov 27, 2019

GoldDog said:
All bolts have torque values depending on size. Most manufacturers of fasteners assign a value where the bolt just starts to stretch. If you can't find a proper torque, a chart like this will get you in the ballpark.

https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/bolts/Metric-Recommended-Torque.aspx

Standard torque on a given size/thread pitch is a good place to start but don't lose sight of the material it's threading into. Airhead center valve cover bolt, case in point.

lkchris · Nov 27, 2019

6322 said:
Standard torque on a given size/thread pitch is a good place to start but don't lose sight of the material it's threading into. Airhead center valve cover bolt, case in point.

That's a nut on a stud and the torque required is the torque required to flatten the lock washer. Tighter than that accomplishes nothing and could be detrimental.

stooie · Nov 27, 2019

6322 said:
Standard torque on a given size/thread pitch is a good place to start but don't lose sight of the material it's threading into. Airhead center valve cover bolt, case in point.

Excellent point, Gary! One would hope that this bolt attaches to a steel threaded insert in the casing. If it doesn't then woe unto he/she who applies the "standard" torque to it.

pglaves · Nov 27, 2019

stooie said:
Excellent point, Gary! One would hope that this bolt attaches to a steel threaded insert in the casing. If it doesn't then woe unto he/she who applies the "standard" torque to it.

I am willing to bet that this fastener threads into the aluminum case.

motodan · Nov 28, 2019

PGlaves said:
I am willing to bet that this fastener threads into the aluminum case.

Paul, you lose on this one. It is #8.

So 19 lb/ft or 149 lb/ft...depends on which service department one contacts.

It's a T-60 head with bushing mating with a M8 bolt. How many M8's do 149 lb/ft? Wish I had this available when I was trying to determine value. Not much room on back size for a 13mm wrench...chain runs pretty close.

akbeemer · Nov 28, 2019

A similar design (parts 8 & 11) is used on some other BMWs, including our GS & GSA. I wonder how many techs use a torque wrench when reassembling this assembly? I do not and I've had ours apart 4-5 times to clean and lubricate.

Shop knowledge - where are you?

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