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RT Contender

Easy said:
I'm not sure what is causing the rear end failures, and I'm not sure BMW does either. If they know they're not telling. I just wanted to point out the difference in weight that water cooling brings to the picture. And that BMW is carefully examining the competition hopefully with an eye on how to improve the final drive.

E.
Click to expand...

IF, .. and that's a BIG IF, anyone knows what's causing the too numerous FD failures in the RT's, GS's, etc. since '05, it would be the boys in Munich, and they're not talking. Anyone else's explanations are just speculation.

Same holds true if it ever gets fixed - you won't exactly hear about that in a press release (Remember surging? Then suddenly, twin-spark ignition debuts, pre-detonation goes away and no more surging, but no admissions either!).

I think the Triumph may indeed be a contender - need to see and ride it to know for sure.

As for weight, I don't find that to be a deal-breaker. My son and I routinely trade mounts on long rides, so I have switched back and forth between my R1200RT and his '07 Honda ST1300 (750#) several times in a given day, including on the Dragon. Not that big a difference.

I know BMW was fanatic about weight reduction to keep the 'sport' in Sport-Tourer. But I think too much was sacrificed, and they ended up with a delicate bike in the end. While many components of my RT have stood the test of time and miles, many other parts have broken - expensively.

Let's wait and see what this Trophy is all about before we assume it objectively cannot dethrone the RT - which for the moment, I too consider the best Sport-Tourer on the market. :german
 
Greenwald said:
IF, .. and that's a BIG IF, anyone knows what's causing the too numerous FD failures in the RT's, GS's, etc. since '05, it would be the boys in Munich, and they're not talking. Anyone else's explanations are just speculation.

Same holds true if it ever gets fixed - you won't exactly hear about that in a press release (Remember surging? Then suddenly, twin-spark ignition debuts, pre-detonation goes away and no more surging, but no admissions either!).

I think the Triumph may indeed be a contender - need to see and ride it to know for sure.

As for weight, I don't find that to be a deal-breaker. My son and I routinely trade mounts on long rides, so I have switched back and forth between my R1200RT and his '07 Honda ST1300 (750#) several times in a given day, including on the Dragon. Not that big a difference.

I know BMW was fanatic about weight reduction to keep the 'sport' in Sport-Tourer. But I think too much was sacrificed, and they ended up with a delicate bike in the end. While many components of my RT have stood the test of time and miles, many other parts have broken - expensively.

Let's wait and see what this Trophy is all about before we assume it objectively cannot dethrone the RT - which for the moment, I too consider the best Sport-Tourer on the market. :german
Click to expand...

My friend worked for BMW before going on his own. He prototyped and tested some of the bikes we love so much. His analysis of final drive failures is accurate. Of course BMW won't admit to the root cause of the problem. BMW cannot solve the final drive failure problem without an engine redesign because the root cause lies in the conrod length to stroke ratio. Lets see what the engine dimensions of the upcoming waterboxer look like. This, and not a redesign of the final drive, is the likely solution.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the link.

Having now seen more pics -- particularly with people in them for scale -- and read the specs, the more I am convinced this is Triumph's carbon-copy of the R12RT.

FWIW, I had a K16GTL for a year, and currently have an R12RT, so I believe I can make a pretty valid comparison.

The rider and passenger positioning on the Trophy is virtually identical to the RT, not the K16 (more space/room on the K16).

Torque output (120 Nm) is the same as the RT.

Dash design is the same (medium-sized LCD screen between two round gauges).

Wheelbase is virtually the same.

Fairing overhang on the front is virtually the same -- indeed, the entire nose shape -- turn signals, mirror location and fairings, windshield strut covers, headlight housing (except for the use of round, rather than free-form lenses), etc. look like a *blatant* copying of the R12RT's front end. EDIT -- as well as the tank: exactly th esame leg cut-outs and separate top rail positioning and shape.

Saddlebag position/shape/size is the same (slightly wider than the RT -- looks less convenient for tight space maneuvering).

Even the rider's seat shape is virtually identical.

The only K16 similarities are the weight and the fact there is a wet clutch basket sticking out of the right rear of the engine/tranny (i.e., same transverse engine and tranny layout, and being a triple, nearly as smooth as the six).

Otherwise, the Trophy is not as large or anywhere near as powerful.


Sorry, folks -- I believe the comparisons with the K16 are entirely missing the mark, and are only being made because the K16 is the latest bike from BMW.

This bike is practically a photocopy of the RT, with different stick-on nameplates -- the target market has to be RT/ST/Concours sport-touring, not the K16's big-grand-tourer market.
 
42906 said:
My friend worked for BMW before going on his own. He prototyped and testeed some of the bikes we love so much. His analysis of final drive failures is accurate. Of course BMW won't admit to the root cause of the problem. BMW cannot solve the final drive failure problem without an engine redesign because the root cause lies in the conrod length to stroke ratio. Lets see what the engine dimensions of the upcoming waterboxer look like. This, and not a redesign of the final drive, is the likely solution.
Click to expand...

I hope he's right. :thumb
 
32232 said:
Full information on the Trophy is up on the Triumph website now. The only thing I don't like is the weight. Then again, the RT is exceptionally light for this class of bike.

http://trophy.triumphmotorcycles.com/
Click to expand...

Hmmmm.....

Best we don't get too cocky just yet.

A third cylinder, liquid-cooled, throttle-by-wire, 45 more cc's, longer wheelbase, nearly 7 gal. of fuel and a more dependable FD pedigree for its shaft drive.

Hmmmmm. :scratch
 
mneblett said:
Thanks for the link.

Having now seen more pics -- particularly with people in them for scale -- and read the specs, the more I am convinced this is Triumph's carbon-copy of the R12RT.

FWIW, I had a K16GTL for a year, and currently have an R12RT, so I believe I can make a pretty valid comparison.

The rider and passenger positioning on the Trophy is virtually identical to the RT, not the K16 (more space/room on the K16).

Torque output (120 Nm) is the same as the RT.

Dash design is the same (medium-sized LCD screen between two round gauges).

Wheelbase is virtually the same.

Fairing overhang on the front is virtually the same -- indeed, the entire nose shape -- turn signals, mirror location and fairings, windshield strut covers, headlight housing (except for the use of round, rather than free-form lenses), etc. look like a *blatant* copying of the R12RT's front end. EDIT -- as well as the tank: exactly th esame leg cut-outs and separate top rail positioning and shape.

Saddlebag position/shape/size is the same (slightly wider than the RT -- looks less convenient for tight space maneuvering).

Even the rider's seat shape is virtually identical.

The only K16 similarities are the weight and the fact there is a wet clutch basket sticking out of the right rear of the engine/tranny (i.e., same transverse engine and tranny layout, and being a triple, nearly as smooth as the six).

Otherwise, the Trophy is not as large or anywhere near as powerful.


Sorry, folks -- I believe the comparisons with the K16 are entirely missing the mark, and are only being made because the K16 is the latest bike from BMW.

This bike is practically a photocopy of the RT, with different stick-on nameplates -- the target market has to be RT/ST/Concours sport-touring, not the K16's big-grand-tourer market.
Click to expand...

Calling any RT a "sport tourer" is laughable. It's a big, soft conventional touring bike, not a sport tourer. And this Triumph is almost 90 lbs heavier than the RT. "Sport touring"? Not even close. Too big, too heavy, too upright.
Sport tourers are light and agile. Passenger accomodation is secondary to the ability to maintain a high average speed on secondary roads, twisty secondary roads. The Spring ST and Ducati Multistrada are sport tourers. VFR-750's and 800's are sport tourers. Good one's too. BMW RS's when BMW still made such a thing, were the ultimate sport tourers. Do you realize this Triumph thing is fully 100 lbs heavier than a K-100RT?
Sorry to be so contrary but do people realize how porky bikes have become over time?
 
42906 said:
Calling any RT a "sport tourer" is laughable. It's a big, soft conventional touring bike, not a sport tourer. And this Triumph is almost 90 lbs heavier than the RT. "Sport touring"? Not even close. Too big, too heavy, too upright.
Sport tourers are light and agile. Passenger accomodation is secondary to the ability to maintain a high average speed on secondary roads, twisty secondary roads. The Spring ST and Ducati Multistrada are sport tourers. VFR-750's and 800's are sport tourers. Good one's too. BMW RS's when BMW still made such a thing, were the ultimate sport tourers. Do you realize this Triumph thing is fully 100 lbs heavier than a K-100RT?
Sorry to be so contrary but do people realize how porky bikes have become over time?
Click to expand...

I think there is more than a kernel of truth in the above statement.
 
The new Trophy certainly does resemble the RT. I hope they didn't copy too much of the design. It would be a plus if they could build it with a gas tank sensor that could correctly measure the amount of fuel remaining. And maybe an instrument cluster that one could easily read, although from the photos it looks to have an identical layout of the RT, so glare may be a problem for the Trophy as well.
 
BMW_R1200RT_2010_05.jpg


Trophy_Italy_006.jpg
 
42906 said:
Calling any RT a "sport tourer" is laughable. It's a big, soft conventional touring bike, not a sport tourer.
Click to expand...


Hmmm.... I kinda think some of the crotch rocket crowd looking at me as I cruise by with my cases on might take issue with that statement. :thumb



As, I might add, will a whole lot of motor cops all over the planet who ride RT-P's.
 
Sport tourer

Do you realize this Triumph thing is fully 100 lbs heavier than a K-100RT?
Sorry to be so contrary but do people realize how porky bikes have become over time?
__________________Amen, brother! I am unable to understand why we need such big and heavy motorcycles. My personal "ideal bike" would probably displace something like 750-900cc and weight hundreds of pounds less than the bikes being offered as serious machines these days.
Come to think of it, what do I need to do that can't be done by a Suzuki WeeStrom? I think the drive toward ever bigger, thirstier and more powerful bikes is largely driven by manufacturers' focus on their bottom line.
 
" I think the drive toward ever bigger, thirstier and more powerful bikes is largely driven by manufacturers' focus on their bottom line. "

OK, so what's your point? This would not help any manufacturers bottom line if it wasn't what people (the majority) wanted. If the market wanted smaller lighter, less complicated bikes, the streets would be teeming with Royal Enfields.

Supply and demand.
 
42906 said:
Calling any RT a "sport tourer" is laughable. It's a big, soft conventional touring bike, not a sport tourer. And this Triumph is almost 90 lbs heavier than the RT. "Sport touring"? Not even close. Too big, too heavy, too upright.
Sport tourers are light and agile. Sorry to be so contrary but do people realize how porky bikes have become over time?
Click to expand...

Are you freaking serious? Ride one, you'll change your opinion.
Bikes have gotten heavier for several reasons. They have evolved, and we have evolved, we've gotten larger and we demand comfort and power. Same thing happened with cars. I loved all my VW Beetles, but the public expects more in 2012.
I don't want to ride cross country on a 285lb 300cc bike from the 60s.

Don't assume the Triumph's weight will hold it back. The power to weight ratio is still better on the Triumph than it is on the RT. Let's see how that weight is balanced and how the engine responds before we write the Triumph's obituary. I'm going to give it a very close look and test ride when it's available. From my experiences with the new Bonneville I'm expecting something nice and smooth.
 
Okay, I'll spell it out more simply. There is more money to be made on expensive vehicles than on more modestly priced vehicles - I don't think that's novel idea.
Build something with a fatter profit margin and then work hard to build demand with advertising. It's a proven concept.
I don't think you're alone in not wanting to tour on a 300cc bike. However, there are plenty of people that find the size, performance and economy of the 650 Suzook to be attractive.
 
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