No brake exercise.

Please correct me if my memory is faulty. A few years ago I took an "advanced rider" class in which SLOW straight riding, U-turns, and tight turns between cones were emphasized. The instructor emphasized we had THREE speed controls at our disposal: throttle, clutch, and rear brake - if that brake was not linked to the front brake. (Mine fortunately is not.)

The advice I remember is 1) throttle should be a constant at about 1500 rpm, 2) you CAN use the clutch only to control speed, 3) it is EASIER to control your speed with the rear brake than the clutch, 4) you CAN combine slight clutch slippage with a little rear brake, but you are making your life more difficult.

For those of us who don't want to (or can't) show off our amazing skills but occasionally need to make a tight U-turn, is there any disadvantage to doing all the speed control with the steady throttle and rear brake, no clutch disengagement? (And yes, I do remember the advice to slide my butt to the high side and swivel my head to look where I want to go rather than at that gravel shoulder I'm afraid I'll hit.

BCKRIDER said:

Please correct me if my memory is faulty. A few years ago I took an "advanced rider" class in which SLOW straight riding, U-turns, and tight turns between cones were emphasized. The instructor emphasized we had THREE speed controls at our disposal: throttle, clutch, and rear brake - if that brake was not linked to the front brake. (Mine fortunately is not.)

The advice I remember is 1) throttle should be a constant at about 1500 rpm, 2) you CAN use the clutch only to control speed, 3) it is EASIER to control your speed with the rear brake than the clutch, 4) you CAN combine slight clutch slippage with a little rear brake, but you are making your life more difficult.

For those of us who don't want to (or can't) show off our amazing skills but occasionally need to make a tight U-turn, is there any disadvantage to doing all the speed control with the steady throttle and rear brake, no clutch disengagement? (And yes, I do remember the advice to slide my butt to the high side and swivel my head to look where I want to go rather than at that gravel shoulder I'm afraid I'll hit.

Click to expand...

Disadvantage would be that you would stall the motorcycle and fall. If you do not slightly disengage (slipping, grey area, feather) the clutch the possiblity is there. I have done some uturns with clutch all the way out and just idle around on a RT. Have the clutch all the way out (enagagement) and using rear brake is not good for the clutch, but can be done.

When I have done the slow U-turns and tight turns common to the MSF-BRC and ERC classes on my 94 RS, I am using a steady throttle with a slight drag on the rear brake. Sometimes, not always, I also have the clutch slightly pulled in to reduce some of the possible jerky action at the throttle.

Smooth steady throttle and slight "forward push" with the clutch engaged is what makes these turns possible, along with a good head turn, handlebar turn, and trust that the bike will not fall in. With slight power applied the bike wants to stand up, which makes leaning it into the turn easier to balance against that stand-up tendency. On the RS, depending on how much fuel is in the tank, its even more difficult because when turning to the right most of the fuel load is off center to the right, and the bike is "heavier" in RH turns.

motorman587 said:

Have the clutch all the way out (enagagement) and using rear brake is not good for the clutch, but can be done.

Click to expand...

Engaging the rear brake (pressing on the foot pedal) while leaving the clutch engaged (lever all the way out) is bad for the clutch.

A - Did I read what you wrote correctly?

B - If so, why is it bad for the clutch? In my mind, that would be no different than going up a steep incline at low speed.

rxcrider said:

Engaging the rear brake (pressing on the foot pedal) while leaving the clutch engaged (lever all the way out) is bad for the clutch.

A - Did I read what you wrote correctly?

B - If so, why is it bad for the clutch? In my mind, that would be no different than going up a steep incline at low speed.

Click to expand...

yeah, i'm trying to figure that one out also. clutch is fully engaged- no wear occurring. clutch fully disengaged- no clutch wear happening either (well, maybe when you've got the HP of a S1000RR or some other superbike). clutch wear happens when the clutch is only partially engaged, and is allowed to slip.

Good friction control in slow speed turns is a combination of clutch, throttle & rear brake. Your skill level will determine how much rear brake you will need. When doing slow speed manouvers ( ie" parking lots etc ) stay off the front brake or you will go down.

As a general rule when at speed on the highway and making turns it is a good idea to be off the brakes before you enter the turn, and have the bike under throttle so that the suspension stabilizes. You want to try & keep a steady throttle throughout the turn and then gradually acclerate to help the bike straighen up as you exit the turn.

A bike under throttle in turns is much more stable, has suspension travel to absorb bumps etc. A bike under braking in turns is more unstable, has little or no suspension travel left to absorb bumps etc. If you acclerate in a turn the bike will stand up and if you brake the bike will sit down. Neither are good techniques when in the twisties.

Practise a good entry & exit apex in a turn with throttle control and you will be amazed at how easily the bike takes turns.

OK, don't listen to me, but I am been teaching motor cops for the last ten years on RTPs and it is "stay of the rear brake", you do not need it.

Hey, but what do I know...............lol Love fourms. I am in the middle of teaching a two week motor instructor school and that is what we are teaching and have just done.

motorman587 said:

OK, don't listen to me, but I am been teaching motor cops for the last ten years on RTPs and it is "stay of the rear brake", you do not need it.

Click to expand...

Ok, i admit i have been a bit afraid to use the rear brake when practicising slow turns anyway...

So, that leaves throttle and clutch ...

Can you give me some advice on the best techniques?

Thanks

This is a good thread. I took the Advanced class last year and this thread has expanded on that considerably. I practice this slow speed stuff all the time on both pavement and dirt so I like threads like this. I am happy we have some real experts on this forum to give advice and guidance to posers like me. Thanks for putting the information out.

BMW Triumphant said:

Ok, i admit i have been a bit afraid to use the rear brake when practicising slow turns anyway...

So, that leaves throttle and clutch ...

Can you give me some advice on the best techniques?

Click to expand...

I have been taught both ways. Motor Patrol Trainers, like motorman587 share the same philosophy; no rear brake needed.

Knowing the friction zone so you use the clutch to adjust your speed while keeping power applied.

BMW Triumphant said:

Ok, i admit i have been a bit afraid to use the rear brake when practicising slow turns anyway...

So, that leaves throttle and clutch ...

Can you give me some advice on the best techniques?

Click to expand...

Yes I can...............

Making a slow tight turn. Get a nice slow speed, "slow" but yet not too fast where your have way through the turn you need brakes. If you are in the turn use rear bakes only. Tap the rear brake to slow down before you start the turn. Look where you want to go. And I mean look. Turn that head back where your chin almost hits your shoulder. Remember the motorcycle goes where the nose goes. On the RT you can leave the clutch all the way out and if you feel you need control, squeeze the clutch in a hair. I like to "feather", disengage and engage, disengage, engage, etc...... Leave the the throttle alone or if you need a hair then "pimp" the throttle slightly. (RTPs are geared differently then RTs) As you make that nice head turn give me a lot of counter lean. The motorcycle leans and you straighten up and or shift your ares on the other end of the motorcycle. You push the motorcycle into the dip of the turn. Hopes this helps.

motorman587 -

Can you clarify this one for me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman587
Have the clutch all the way out (enagagement) and using rear brake is not good for the clutch, but can be done.

Engaging the rear brake (pressing on the foot pedal) while leaving the clutch engaged (lever all the way out) is bad for the clutch.

A - Did I read what you wrote correctly?

B - If so, why is it bad for the clutch? In my mind, that would be no different than going up a steep incline at low speed.

In your last post, you advocate feathering the clutch, which I would think of as worse for clutch wear.

Was your "not good for the clutch" comment not related to wear, but rather low RPM hammering on the splines and torque straps?

Thanks

rxcrider said:

motorman587 -

Can you clarify this one for me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman587
Have the clutch all the way out (enagagement) and using rear brake is not good for the clutch, but can be done.

Engaging the rear brake (pressing on the foot pedal) while leaving the clutch engaged (lever all the way out) is bad for the clutch.

A - Did I read what you wrote correctly?

B - If so, why is it bad for the clutch? In my mind, that would be no different than going up a steep incline at low speed.

In your last post, you advocate feathering the clutch, which I would think of as worse for clutch wear.

Was your "not good for the clutch" comment not related to wear, but rather low RPM hammering on the splines and torque straps?

Thanks

Click to expand...

If you are going up a steep incline you would not be dragging the rear brake? It only becomes bad if you are using a lot of rear brake pressure and the clutch half engaged or fully engaged. Something must give and it will be a burned out clutch. This a techinque that helps some become a better ride. Feathering the clutch helps cool the clutch while you are doing this, slow tight turns, not going up a hill. If you are dragging while pressure on the rear brake this causes more friction/heat.

motorman587 said:

If you are going up a steep incline you would not be dragging the rear brake? It only becomes bad if you are using a lot of rear brake pressure and the clutch half engaged or fully engaged. Something must give and it will be a burned out clutch. This a techinque that helps some become a better ride. Feathering the clutch helps cool the clutch while you are doing this, slow tight turns, not going up a hill. If you are dragging while pressure on the rear brake this causes more friction/heat.

Click to expand...

really? how?
i would just expect the bike to stall.
heat build up in the clutch from friction/heat build up at the rear brake? again- how?

bikerfish1100 said:

really? how?
i would just expect the bike to stall.
heat build up in the clutch from friction/heat build up at the rear brake? again- how?

Click to expand...

It would stall if there is too much throttle, but if you continue slipping the clutch plus using a lot of rear brake pressure the heat will build. I saw a motor officer attempt a rodeo a couple of years ago that would not listen and when he was done after 1/2 hour or so, smoke was coming from the motorcycle. He ended up "smoking" the clutch.

roamingbeemer said:

This is a good thread. I took the Advanced class last year and this thread has expanded on that considerably. I practice this slow speed stuff all the time on both pavement and dirt so I like threads like this. I am happy we have some real experts on this forum to give advice and guidance to posers like me. Thanks for putting the information out.

Click to expand...

I will second that.

Great discussion.

WestHautianPlen said:

I will second that.

Great discussion.

Click to expand...

Thank you, and I would like to add that the information I post is no secret, nor I am saying that this way is the only way, but a way. If you been using the rear brake in your tight turns, great. I am just saying that you can do it with out the rear brake with practice and with this techique you will be come a smoothier rider without wear (normal) on the clutch/brake.

Did you ever see the Indianapolis Police perform their pre-race show at the Indy 500? They can ride their Harleys around the track while standing on the seat.

Equally as relevant to everyday riding as the no-brake exercise.

http://www.drillsquad.com/gallery/viewer.html

motorman587 said:

It would stall if there is too much throttle, but if you continue slipping the clutch plus using a lot of rear brake pressure the heat will build. I saw a motor officer attempt a rodeo a couple of years ago that would not listen and when he was done after 1/2 hour or so, smoke was coming from the motorcycle. He ended up "smoking" the clutch.

Click to expand...

thoroughly agree. but this is a change of condition from what you stated earlier, which is what both I and rxcrider have asked you to clarify. previously, you had stated the conditional situation as Engaging the rear brake (pressing on the foot pedal) while leaving the clutch engaged (lever all the way out) is bad for the clutch.
typo, braincramp, or what you meant to say?

motorman587 said:

If you are going up a steep incline you would not be dragging the rear brake?.

Click to expand...

True - just similar loading as far as the clutch is concerned if moderately dragging the rear brake or going up a steep incline.

motorman587 said:

It only becomes bad if you are using a lot of rear brake pressure and the clutch half engaged or fully engaged. Something must give and it will be a burned out clutch.

Click to expand...

I get this for partial clutch engagement and riding the back brake. Again, similar clutch loading to going up a hill with a partially engaged clutch - bad idea. It is the fully engaged clutch (clutch lever at the bar released) that I'm not grasping. I can see riding the brake with the clutch engaged being bad for the brake. (like driving your car around with the parking brake on) I can also see it causing the engine to stutter or stall if done at a low RPM. I just don't understand how the clutch gets smoked if I don't squeeze the lever.

motorman587 said:

Feathering the clutch helps cool the clutch while you are doing this, slow tight turns, not going up a hill. If you are dragging while pressure on the rear brake this causes more friction/heat.

Click to expand...

If by feathering, you meed modulating the clutch to control power transfer while minimizing the amount of clutch slippage through smooth, but rappid engagement and disengagement, I can buy that. It should still generate less heat by leaving the lever alone / keeping the clutch fully engaged.

motorman587 said:

It would stall if there is too much throttle...

Click to expand...

This makes sense if by "too much throttle" you mean closing it too far. I guess it could also make sense on a carbureted bike without an accelerator pump.

motorman587 said:

...but if you continue slipping the clutch plus using a lot of rear brake pressure the heat will build. I saw a motor officer attempt a rodeo a couple of years ago that would not listen and when he was done after 1/2 hour or so, smoke was coming from the motorcycle. He ended up "smoking" the clutch.

Click to expand...

Absolutely - Wet clutches don't enjoy that and out dry ones won't put up with much of it at all.

BTW - not trying to in any way argue against careful clutch manipulation in slow, tight turns. - just trying to fully understand a few of your comments about the fully engaged clutch. Somehow I suspect we would have all been on the same page in a minute were this conversation in person.

Getting back to your turning technique -
You mentioned counter leaning or having your body stay vertical and having the bike lean beneath you and pushing the bike into the turn. Ignoring throttle, brake and clutch manipulation, are you strictly pushing on the bars to initiate the turn or weighting / pressuring the pegs as well. The same question goes for exiting the turn / standing the bike up.