Greetings folks. Wondering if anyone else has had this problem on long rides. Just completed 1400 miles out to Big Bend NP and back to Austin, TX...I have GS R1150, 2002..im 5' 8" and I'm fit. Ive done long rides before and got a neck problem. It resolves over time. This is serious stuff, because Im planning on riding 15,000 miles from Austin down to Buenos Aires next January with Nick Sanders Group World Challenge. What the heck can I do to alleviate this problem..Is the bars not adjusted, the seat, my heavy Kevlar jacket, my Schuberth helmet, my position. Im trying to solve this step by step. Or is it possible this bike just is too big for me and I need to gear it down: like getting a R 100GS Paris Dakar airhead? I dont have this problem when i ride my R90/6 1976. I know I'm getting older but come on man...this aint age. I dont ride tense, although i was buffeted by crosswinds for 150 miles on I10. Thoughts??? Yes, yoga is great. But I want to treat the cause. Cheers. Paul tthousesaustin@gmail.com
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Pain in neck/shoulders- long rides
- Thread starter tthouses
- Start date
pglaves
#13338
Take a careful look at your posture in a photograph taken from the side. Are you leaning a little forward so tilting the head a bit back to level the eyes to the horizon? A side view can tell a lot about the neck position.
p.s. You were supposed to stop by when in the neighborhood. 25 miles north of Study Butte on 118.
p.s. You were supposed to stop by when in the neighborhood. 25 miles north of Study Butte on 118.
BMARC153920
New member
Riding position may have you using your neck more than in the past Do you workout your neck and shoulders? I'd say the winds and buffeting contributed and increasing shoulder and neck strength would help a ton. But that is just a guess.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
manicmechanic
ABC,AMA(LIFE),MOA,RA,IBMW
How tightly do you hold the grips?
Mark H
New member
OK it's always a risk diving into ergonomics with bikes, the workplace or anywhere for that matter, so if you don't agree or think it's all too much babble I won't be offended. I'll give you my 2 cents worth - but it won't be short. Yes, a lot of this sounds obvious, but I'll go from start to finish just in case. I've developed ergonomic strategies for workplaces and for product development for the past 30 years as a component of my product design profession and sometimes the obvious is overlooked.
Posture and Fitness are the key elements. Posture is very much related to the ergonomics of the bike, but also down to the individual. The other key components are fatigue and stress (mental and physical).
So to tick a couple of the boxes - if you are fit and your posture on the bike is correct, you have a great point to start from. If not, these should be addressed first.
Fitness is relative, but most of us are not as fit as we think and not as fit as we would like. A long ride or multiple long rides day after day on a tour requires preparation and no more so than for your fitness. Think of it like a marathon or half-marathon run. We can all probably manage a 10 km run and 5 km is no big deal, but stretch that to 21 km and we are going to be sore the next day. Go the full 42 km (26 miles) and it is going to damage you unless you do the training and get prepared for it. Long distance motorcycle riding of any kind is no different. Those who don't ride think it's like sitting on the couch, but we know better.
Posture is also critical, particularly for long distance riding (lots of hours in the saddle). Not unlike sitting at a desk for long hours each day at work, posture is critical to comfort. Head position is the big one but torso relative to pelvis and rotation of the pelvis relative to lower back and thighs is also up there. Your head should sit directly above your shoulders and not be perched forward (FHP - forward head posture)
Even the slightest FHP can increase the load on your spine significantly and when you add the weight of a helmet it is dramatic. Your natural response is to hunker down and that transfers stress into your shoulders. This is so much more difficult if you ride a sports bike.
Shoulder posture is often the thing that conspires against us even if we get the FHP correct. Fatigue and stress (mental too) causes us to raise our shoulders and compress our necks. I so often see bikers with the rim of their helmets resting or almost resting against the shoulders of their jackets. This is sometimes in an attempt to get out of the wind, but once again a strong neck with good posture will often sort out much of what we blame on a poor screen.
A simple exercise/technique to practice is to relax your shoulders pull them down and back (chest out) and lift your head up. The technique is based on the thought that you carry your body suspended from your head and neck - not the other way around. A lot of this is linked to a movement called the Alexander Technique. Specific neck and shoulder exercises are a big help but not in isolation. Full body exercises focusing on the core are vital.
The other important postural adjustment is to roll your pelvis forward. Take the weight of your butt cheeks and roll it forward onto the ischial tuberosities (those bones on each side of the lower part of your butt sometimes known as the sitz bones), this will force you to reposition your lower back into the correct concave "S" curve. We all tend to slouch and if we are carrying a little extra around our stomachs it is exacerbated. Clench your abdominal muscles and this helps support your upper torso. This is a difficult posture to hold for any length of time (particularly in our modern world) so the key is correct yourself when you notice you are slouching. The longer you hold the correct posture, the longer you will be able to ride (but you need to be fit to hold it) - viscous circle and it always leads back to fitness and mostly core strength. You will be amazed how much more comfortable that "awful seat" is when you do this. Try it now - I bet most if not all of us are sitting incorrectly as we read this. This will also take weight off your hands and alleviate numb fingers and painful tired hands. You will be amazed how much softer your grip can be if you have a strong core.
If the bike is not the right size and shape for you, there are some things you can do to adjust it, but sometimes it may just be a bad fit. Bar risers and seat changes along with modifications to foot pegs can all be done, but most often I find that people go there first and still ignore posture and fitness - so money not so well spent because ultimately it will not fix the issues. Screens are also a feature for examination and review along with seats but also not a first stop on the solution list in my book. Yes, jackets are heavy too but our skeletal frames are more than up to the task as long as our musculature is fit and overall we are lean. Often riding in cold weather is a cause of poor posture as we tend to huddle to keep warm.
The last point that springs to mind is - grip the tank with your thighs (like you are holding a $100 note on each side). Once again, if you are not fit, this will be difficult to sustain, but as your fitness increases you will be able to hold longer and it will become a natural riding posture. This will take weight away from those nasty points like hands etc. and also help you hold your correct pelvic posture.
No doubt about it, if you get everything right, you will be able to tackle longer rides with less fatigue and discomfort, but the simple fact is we need variation in posture and position. So often we ride our bikes for a couple of hours at least in one hit and our posture changes very little. A strong core and correct posture will help you push through, but the magic bullet is to take a break and dance around a little. Bend, stretch and get your body moving. How often do we see people on bikes riding along but desperately trying to put their feet up, out back etc. in an attempt to alleviate that fatigue. Short breaks will pay back in many more comfortable miles in any given day and you meet the nicest people at truck stops.
I'll stop preaching now but happy to discuss further if anyone is interested.
Posture and Fitness are the key elements. Posture is very much related to the ergonomics of the bike, but also down to the individual. The other key components are fatigue and stress (mental and physical).
So to tick a couple of the boxes - if you are fit and your posture on the bike is correct, you have a great point to start from. If not, these should be addressed first.
Fitness is relative, but most of us are not as fit as we think and not as fit as we would like. A long ride or multiple long rides day after day on a tour requires preparation and no more so than for your fitness. Think of it like a marathon or half-marathon run. We can all probably manage a 10 km run and 5 km is no big deal, but stretch that to 21 km and we are going to be sore the next day. Go the full 42 km (26 miles) and it is going to damage you unless you do the training and get prepared for it. Long distance motorcycle riding of any kind is no different. Those who don't ride think it's like sitting on the couch, but we know better.
Posture is also critical, particularly for long distance riding (lots of hours in the saddle). Not unlike sitting at a desk for long hours each day at work, posture is critical to comfort. Head position is the big one but torso relative to pelvis and rotation of the pelvis relative to lower back and thighs is also up there. Your head should sit directly above your shoulders and not be perched forward (FHP - forward head posture)
Even the slightest FHP can increase the load on your spine significantly and when you add the weight of a helmet it is dramatic. Your natural response is to hunker down and that transfers stress into your shoulders. This is so much more difficult if you ride a sports bike.
Shoulder posture is often the thing that conspires against us even if we get the FHP correct. Fatigue and stress (mental too) causes us to raise our shoulders and compress our necks. I so often see bikers with the rim of their helmets resting or almost resting against the shoulders of their jackets. This is sometimes in an attempt to get out of the wind, but once again a strong neck with good posture will often sort out much of what we blame on a poor screen.
A simple exercise/technique to practice is to relax your shoulders pull them down and back (chest out) and lift your head up. The technique is based on the thought that you carry your body suspended from your head and neck - not the other way around. A lot of this is linked to a movement called the Alexander Technique. Specific neck and shoulder exercises are a big help but not in isolation. Full body exercises focusing on the core are vital.
The other important postural adjustment is to roll your pelvis forward. Take the weight of your butt cheeks and roll it forward onto the ischial tuberosities (those bones on each side of the lower part of your butt sometimes known as the sitz bones), this will force you to reposition your lower back into the correct concave "S" curve. We all tend to slouch and if we are carrying a little extra around our stomachs it is exacerbated. Clench your abdominal muscles and this helps support your upper torso. This is a difficult posture to hold for any length of time (particularly in our modern world) so the key is correct yourself when you notice you are slouching. The longer you hold the correct posture, the longer you will be able to ride (but you need to be fit to hold it) - viscous circle and it always leads back to fitness and mostly core strength. You will be amazed how much more comfortable that "awful seat" is when you do this. Try it now - I bet most if not all of us are sitting incorrectly as we read this. This will also take weight off your hands and alleviate numb fingers and painful tired hands. You will be amazed how much softer your grip can be if you have a strong core.
If the bike is not the right size and shape for you, there are some things you can do to adjust it, but sometimes it may just be a bad fit. Bar risers and seat changes along with modifications to foot pegs can all be done, but most often I find that people go there first and still ignore posture and fitness - so money not so well spent because ultimately it will not fix the issues. Screens are also a feature for examination and review along with seats but also not a first stop on the solution list in my book. Yes, jackets are heavy too but our skeletal frames are more than up to the task as long as our musculature is fit and overall we are lean. Often riding in cold weather is a cause of poor posture as we tend to huddle to keep warm.
The last point that springs to mind is - grip the tank with your thighs (like you are holding a $100 note on each side). Once again, if you are not fit, this will be difficult to sustain, but as your fitness increases you will be able to hold longer and it will become a natural riding posture. This will take weight away from those nasty points like hands etc. and also help you hold your correct pelvic posture.
No doubt about it, if you get everything right, you will be able to tackle longer rides with less fatigue and discomfort, but the simple fact is we need variation in posture and position. So often we ride our bikes for a couple of hours at least in one hit and our posture changes very little. A strong core and correct posture will help you push through, but the magic bullet is to take a break and dance around a little. Bend, stretch and get your body moving. How often do we see people on bikes riding along but desperately trying to put their feet up, out back etc. in an attempt to alleviate that fatigue. Short breaks will pay back in many more comfortable miles in any given day and you meet the nicest people at truck stops.
I'll stop preaching now but happy to discuss further if anyone is interested.
Great input Mark
Core strength is overlooked by many for sure. Definitely agree on needing to build up to longer rides...same for outdoor environment acclimation. Hard to deal with heat/cold if you never get out in it regularly, sometimes only on weekend rides.
Just a simple workout routine, heavy on the routine will add smiles to the miles. On longer trips, walking between lodging and eating instead of suiting up again for a two block trek helps in many ways.
Riding bicycles helped me understand posture a long time ago and still have to tell myself to relax the shoulders at times. See so many folks with shoulders up to their ears on both types of cycles,which rapidly increases fatigue.
Pre ride stretching as well as at fuel/scenic stops definitely improves the effects of long days in the
saddle.
And riding I-10 thru West Texas and the other western states where it is gusty and often truck heavy will
wear anyone out in a short time both physically and mentally. We have route options to minimize I-10
exposure. We only get on it when there are no options.
I just did the Big Bend thing as well and shorter ride days when it was gusty made my trip even better.
The weight of a bike is only an issue when you have to pick it up or push it.
Core strength is overlooked by many for sure. Definitely agree on needing to build up to longer rides...same for outdoor environment acclimation. Hard to deal with heat/cold if you never get out in it regularly, sometimes only on weekend rides.
Just a simple workout routine, heavy on the routine will add smiles to the miles. On longer trips, walking between lodging and eating instead of suiting up again for a two block trek helps in many ways.
Riding bicycles helped me understand posture a long time ago and still have to tell myself to relax the shoulders at times. See so many folks with shoulders up to their ears on both types of cycles,which rapidly increases fatigue.
Pre ride stretching as well as at fuel/scenic stops definitely improves the effects of long days in the
saddle.
And riding I-10 thru West Texas and the other western states where it is gusty and often truck heavy will
wear anyone out in a short time both physically and mentally. We have route options to minimize I-10
exposure. We only get on it when there are no options.
I just did the Big Bend thing as well and shorter ride days when it was gusty made my trip even better.
The weight of a bike is only an issue when you have to pick it up or push it.
dandeldesierto
New member
Long ride considerations
There are some good points brought up by previous posters. When I read your original post, my first thought was you may have too much buffeting due to cross-winds. One other thing I've experienced is that it takes several days to become acclimated to touring style riding. Big Bend is just about a long enough trip to NOT get that acclimation. If you did 1400 miles on a BB trip then about a thousand was getting there and back; so the other 400 or so (I assume) was done in more than one day. I'm not knocking the mileage, but a long trip such as you're planning is a whole different creature. A couple of years ago I did a loop from Dallas/FW area to Chicago then to San Francisco and back to DFW. The whole trip turned out to be about 6200 miles, it took about 11 days; I stayed in Chi-town for two of those days and lost a day doing some mechanical work in Wendover, UT/NV. I found the first two days of the trip were painful, with symptoms very similar to what you described, then I hit "my stride" and was able to ride more miles with less discomfort. Stopping for more than one night in any spot resulted in another break-in period when resuming the trip (although shorter break-in times after the initial one). On that trip I was trying to "make time"; the next year I took a long meandering trip through the west, but generally only rode 300 miles or so a day; hanging it up in mid to late afternoon each day, several times staying in one location for two or three days at a time. Much easier than "making time". So, to reiterate what an earlier poster said, you have to get in shape for the unique stresses of a long ride; posture and ergonomics are very important, as is wind protection, and take "walk-around" breaks every so often (like at fuel stops and photo opps).
There are some good points brought up by previous posters. When I read your original post, my first thought was you may have too much buffeting due to cross-winds. One other thing I've experienced is that it takes several days to become acclimated to touring style riding. Big Bend is just about a long enough trip to NOT get that acclimation. If you did 1400 miles on a BB trip then about a thousand was getting there and back; so the other 400 or so (I assume) was done in more than one day. I'm not knocking the mileage, but a long trip such as you're planning is a whole different creature. A couple of years ago I did a loop from Dallas/FW area to Chicago then to San Francisco and back to DFW. The whole trip turned out to be about 6200 miles, it took about 11 days; I stayed in Chi-town for two of those days and lost a day doing some mechanical work in Wendover, UT/NV. I found the first two days of the trip were painful, with symptoms very similar to what you described, then I hit "my stride" and was able to ride more miles with less discomfort. Stopping for more than one night in any spot resulted in another break-in period when resuming the trip (although shorter break-in times after the initial one). On that trip I was trying to "make time"; the next year I took a long meandering trip through the west, but generally only rode 300 miles or so a day; hanging it up in mid to late afternoon each day, several times staying in one location for two or three days at a time. Much easier than "making time". So, to reiterate what an earlier poster said, you have to get in shape for the unique stresses of a long ride; posture and ergonomics are very important, as is wind protection, and take "walk-around" breaks every so often (like at fuel stops and photo opps).
lkchris
Active member
Once again, I'll post this lame joke ...
Man and woman both encounter situation when trying on some pants that they don't fit ...
Woman: "Ooh, I need to lose weight."
Man: "There's something wrong with these pants."
Rather than thinking the motorcycle needs modifying, recommend consultation with physical therapist.
Man and woman both encounter situation when trying on some pants that they don't fit ...
Woman: "Ooh, I need to lose weight."
Man: "There's something wrong with these pants."
Rather than thinking the motorcycle needs modifying, recommend consultation with physical therapist.
Mark H
New member
Although I wouldn't usually advocate focusing on any one part of the body in isolation, if you have general good core and overall fitness/strength and are still experiencing some issues with neck and shoulder pain there are some exercises for strengthening this region you could try. This assumes you have no injury or disability.
I agree with Kent though - get in to see a good physio therapist. The cost of the consultation will be much less than modifications to your bike.
But for now you may like to try the exercises described on this site - LINK
I particularly like the one where you push back gently with your head against the headrest in your car. Nice simple exercise that we can all do when we are stuck in a cage
I agree with Kent though - get in to see a good physio therapist. The cost of the consultation will be much less than modifications to your bike.
But for now you may like to try the exercises described on this site - LINK
I particularly like the one where you push back gently with your head against the headrest in your car. Nice simple exercise that we can all do when we are stuck in a cage
akbeemer
SURVIVOR
My PT has me on my back with my head resting on a rubber ball that is only partially inflated. Press my head against the ball and hold for a two count, repeat until muscle fatigue begins. There are others but this is the one that seems to focus on the muscles in question for me.
jeffkruger
New member
Were there periods of wind or anything that might have caused you some stress? A lot of folks hold the grips way too tight and get way too rigid if they are stressed a bit. Riding like that can cause all sorts of pains.
I raced motocross for years. When I first started out I would finish some races and my neck and shoulders would just feel trashed. A good friend finally told me to relax as much as I could, and to make sure I could wiggle my toes every now and then. When you are really tensed up you can't wiggle your toes very well. Once I started relaxing and was comfortable letting the bike move beneath me the sore neck and shoulders went away.
I raced motocross for years. When I first started out I would finish some races and my neck and shoulders would just feel trashed. A good friend finally told me to relax as much as I could, and to make sure I could wiggle my toes every now and then. When you are really tensed up you can't wiggle your toes very well. Once I started relaxing and was comfortable letting the bike move beneath me the sore neck and shoulders went away.
EvryDayRide
John
Some great stuff from Mark H.........
I have a 2011 R1200GS. I did all of the ergonomic changes as suggested in this thread a number of years ago and purchased the lighter Shuberth helmet. It helped, but I was still fighting neck and upper back pain. As a side note, my lumbar discs are also all messed up. Without going into a lengthy detail, I installed a back support on the driver seat. It has allowed me to relax my upper body and just about eliminate the pain I was having between the shoulder blades and neck. I am enrolled in a Palates Class to work on my posture and core body strength. It all helps.
I keep my riding days short and the mileage obtainable with out causing additional pain. Many breaks in between.
John
I have a 2011 R1200GS. I did all of the ergonomic changes as suggested in this thread a number of years ago and purchased the lighter Shuberth helmet. It helped, but I was still fighting neck and upper back pain. As a side note, my lumbar discs are also all messed up. Without going into a lengthy detail, I installed a back support on the driver seat. It has allowed me to relax my upper body and just about eliminate the pain I was having between the shoulder blades and neck. I am enrolled in a Palates Class to work on my posture and core body strength. It all helps.
I keep my riding days short and the mileage obtainable with out causing additional pain. Many breaks in between.
John
I can relate....my leather jacket suffered abdominal area shrinkage ....damnedest thing I've ever seen .................
Fitness
Hey everyone!
So, I think that core fitness might have something to do with it, or maybe not. Either way, I wanted to put it out there that I just recently started a facebook page dedicated to Fitness and motorcycle riding. I'll eventually expand it to a regular website as well... but the idea is to motivate and help give ideas for developing core strength, balance, and general fitness for riding.
I'd be happy to suggest some exercise plans that help with balance and strength. When I first got my bike, I was way out of shape and worried that I'd hurt myself on the bike because I was so out of shape. I started a program that my wife had suggested, and lost 40 pounds in the first 3 months. I'd love to help anyone out there if they need it!
My facebook page is: https://www.facebook.com/fitrideradv/
As you can see, it's very new.
Happy Riding!
Ryan
Hey everyone!
So, I think that core fitness might have something to do with it, or maybe not. Either way, I wanted to put it out there that I just recently started a facebook page dedicated to Fitness and motorcycle riding. I'll eventually expand it to a regular website as well... but the idea is to motivate and help give ideas for developing core strength, balance, and general fitness for riding.
I'd be happy to suggest some exercise plans that help with balance and strength. When I first got my bike, I was way out of shape and worried that I'd hurt myself on the bike because I was so out of shape. I started a program that my wife had suggested, and lost 40 pounds in the first 3 months. I'd love to help anyone out there if they need it!
My facebook page is: https://www.facebook.com/fitrideradv/
As you can see, it's very new.
Happy Riding!
Ryan
You mention your height but not if you have a long back, short legs or short arms etc. These play into your riding posture. Pain in the area you outline is usually caused by reaching for the bars causing you to have to keep your head up. This causes strain on the neck and shoulders.
Many times just adjusting the bars back or buying a set of risers/bar backs takes care of this problem. To take strain off the area in question you need to sit more up right. How much is a matter of trail and error.
No doubt fitness plays a role but it is often a simple case of poor ergonomics. Do a search on the web as there is a pretty good site that allows you to input your bike, then change bars or pegs and see how it affects your posture. I use to have the site booked but can no longer find it.
Many times just adjusting the bars back or buying a set of risers/bar backs takes care of this problem. To take strain off the area in question you need to sit more up right. How much is a matter of trail and error.
No doubt fitness plays a role but it is often a simple case of poor ergonomics. Do a search on the web as there is a pretty good site that allows you to input your bike, then change bars or pegs and see how it affects your posture. I use to have the site booked but can no longer find it.
Thanks, Mark. You obviously know what you're talking about and while I don't have any issues, I tried to absorb all I could just in case.
I commute daily about an hour each way. It's not long, but I work on practicing what you wrote above. I found that I could position my feet a certain way on the pegs that naturally caused my stomach muscles to tighten up...and it took pressure off the tail bone. I couldn't hold it forever...the body naturally loosens up as you focus on other things around you, but when I realized that, I'd try to get that position again that caused my stomach muscles to tighten. Long story short, it was like working out at the gym. You do it often enough, it becomes natural and easy to do on long 10-11 hour trips.
And you're right...it takes that awful seat and makes it actually comfortable enough that you don't even think about it.
Chris
lkraus
New member
Mark's post reminds me of the principles expressed by Dick Frantz in an old post known as "Master Yoda's Riding Position", except the ideas are stated more clearly and are formatted better. It takes some time and conscious thought to make good posture a habit, but ultimately it will save personal energy and improve control of the bike.
dennisdarrow
#4869 Earned Lifetime mem
For me, Ankylosing Spondylitis, a form of arthritis that starts in the lumbar and ends up fusing the entire spine over maybe 40 years has been a constant companion over the years.........NOT advocating drugs......hydrocodone and the like.....but.......One can do ibuprofen to the max and other non-narcotic type of pain relief to make the extra 300 miles.........Some ailments, no matter what one does to try to go the medical therapeutic route, cannot be anything but chronic.........God bless....Dennis
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