Output shaft on 1150 transmissions?

[taunton64]

Can someone please explain to me why BMW has so much trouble with splines? On the old Airheads it was the final drive splines. On the 1150 oil heads it’s the transmission output splines. My bike has 30,000 on it and I baby the heck out of it. I don’t know if the output shaft splines are bad or not. I’m going to tear it down in a week or two and give it a look see. I have to do other maintenance anyway might as well go through the whole thing anyway. I’ll clean it up and through a little sturbach paste on it. I’m sure it probably going to be ok. Just has me wondering...., thoughts?

 

[beemerphile]

Think of it as bonding with your machine. Be sure to check paralever bearings, driveshaft joints, various seals, and the clutch slave cylinder while you are in there. Resist the urge to pull it off in one big chunk as if the splines are the only component to consider. As far as why, well heck, it is just a characteristic of the machines. If you don't want to mess with it you can buy a Japanese machine that might as well say "Kelvinator" on the side of it. I think of it as being half-way to a Ducati on the owner involvement vs. character scale.

 

[taunton64]

Think of it as bonding with your machine. Be sure to check paralever bearings, driveshaft joints, various seals, and the clutch slave cylinder while you are in there. Resist the urge to pull it off in one big chunk as if the splines are the only component to consider. As far as why, well heck, it is just a characteristic of the machines. If you don't want to mess with it you can buy a Japanese machine that might as well say "Kelvinator" on the side of it. I think of it as being half-way to a Ducati on the owner involvement vs. character scale.

Oh believe me. I’m not going in there looking for trouble. I’m not having any issues should I just leave it alone? I kinda figured it had 30,000 on it and I’ve never had it apart it wouldn’t hurt to go give it a look.

 

[beemerphile]

Oh believe me. I’m not going in there looking for trouble. I’m not having any issues should I just leave it alone? I kinda figured it had 30,000 on it and I’ve never had it apart it wouldn’t hurt to go give it a look.

I would go in looking for trouble. It is ok to hope you don't find it, but the peace of mind that comes from laying hands on the important parts and knowing their condition is significant - to some. To others, run her till she poops parts. I"d rather know.

 

[gsaddict]

It's the transmission INPUT spline that has issues

I have yet to see an output shaft spline issue.

That being said there has been lots written and discussed on the input shaft problem.
Google the problem and you will have you hours of reading.

IMO the problem stems from the input shaft being 6mm short of full hub contact.
The power pulses from the big twin is very hard on the splines as the clutch disc only has a flex plate, no springs.
The stock input shaft splines are also too soft.
I had issues years ago on my 1150GS and had a longer input shaft custom made which afforded full contact of the splines.
It was successful for me as I have 112,000 miles on it to date and upon inspection 30,000 miles ago it was perfect.
I was not successful at the time selling any as people were not willing to pay the higher price (3x) and I needed a firm commitment for a 10 unit run.

Another solution that some are trying for for full spline engagement is installing a spacer on the clutch disc. The Mileage jury is presently out on this.
An very nice inmate on ADV was selling a kit to do that. He no longer does as BB now sells a disc that has an extended hub. https://www.beemerboneyard.com/cla33264.html
I have just installed one on my 1150RT to test.

Regular lubrication of the splines with a quality moly grease is an excellent PM but is a very labour intensive process

 

[taunton64]

I have yet to see an output shaft spline issue.

That being said there has been lots written and discussed on the input shaft problem.
Google the problem and you will have you hours of reading.

IMO the problem stems from the input shaft being 6mm short of full hub contact.
The power pulses from the big twin is very hard on the splines as the clutch disc only has a flex plate, no springs.
The stock input shaft splines are also too soft.
I had issues years ago on my 1150GS and had a longer input shaft custom made which afforded full contact of the splines.
It was successful for me as I have 112,000 miles on it to date and upon inspection 30,000 miles ago it was perfect.
I was not successful at the time selling any as people were not willing to pay the higher price (3x) and I needed a firm commitment for a 10 unit run.

Another solution that some are trying for for full spline engagement is installing a spacer on the clutch disc. The Mileage jury is presently out on this.
An very nice inmate on ADV was selling a kit to do that. He no longer does as BB now sells a disc that has an extended hub. https://www.beemerboneyard.com/cla33264.html
I have just installed one on my 1150RT to test.

Regular lubrication of the splines with a quality moly grease is an excellent PM but is a very labour intensive process

yep. My mistake. I meant input shaft. Sorry folks my mistake. I’ll dig into it soon and give it a look. Either way I’ll clean it up if not worn and put a little starbach paste on it. Might have spelled that wrong.

 

[taunton64]

I have yet to see an output shaft spline issue.

That being said there has been lots written and discussed on the input shaft problem.
Google the problem and you will have you hours of reading.

IMO the problem stems from the input shaft being 6mm short of full hub contact.
The power pulses from the big twin is very hard on the splines as the clutch disc only has a flex plate, no springs.
The stock input shaft splines are also too soft.
I had issues years ago on my 1150GS and had a longer input shaft custom made which afforded full contact of the splines.
It was successful for me as I have 112,000 miles on it to date and upon inspection 30,000 miles ago it was perfect.
I was not successful at the time selling any as people were not willing to pay the higher price (3x) and I needed a firm commitment for a 10 unit run.

Another solution that some are trying for for full spline engagement is installing a spacer on the clutch disc. The Mileage jury is presently out on this.
An very nice inmate on ADV was selling a kit to do that. He no longer does as BB now sells a disc that has an extended hub. https://www.beemerboneyard.com/cla33264.html
I have just installed one on my 1150RT to test.

Regular lubrication of the splines with a quality moly grease is an excellent PM but is a very labour intensive process

I just looked it up on the boneyard. If I’m going to dig into this and lube up the splines anyway I might as well change the disk and be done with it. This was very helpful. Thanks

 

[giarcg]

If I’m going to dig into this and lube up the splines anyway I might as well change the disk and be done with it.

+1... that would be my advice.

I'm running the spacer on two bikes and the extended hub on two others.... the spacers went on bikes with perfect splines as a precaution. The extended hubs went on bikes that had failed splines. Time (and miles) will tell.

 

[gsaddict]

I just looked it up on the boneyard. If I’m going to dig into this and lube up the splines anyway I might as well change the disk and be done with it. This was very helpful. Thanks

Just a heads up if you do.

Check both pressure plates for flat with a machinists straight edge.
If they are dished at all replace them as well.
If you don't, there is a reasonable risk that the new clutch disc will slip on hard acceleration.

Most Dealers won't do a clutch job unless all components are replaced and
the one time I tried it, it slipped.

 

[calsgone]

Can there be a Clutch modify !!

If I had the shop inspect the clutch, would it be possible to shim, machine a solid piece, or cut a section from another spline and insert that between the units?? It looks like a better clutch is available through the shop you recommend, but not for the RS model, just the R clutch. I don't suppose there is a way to get the right length without a whole new shaft, like you did?? Is there a way to solve this without a 500 dollar or more bill ??

Darn, there is a lot to fix on these things, Cal

 

[gsaddict]

If I had the shop inspect the clutch, would it be possible to shim, machine a solid piece, or cut a section from another spline and insert that between the units?? It looks like a better clutch is available through the shop you recommend, but not for the RS model, just the R clutch. I don't suppose there is a way to get the right length without a whole new shaft, like you did?? Is there a way to solve this without a 500 dollar or more bill ??

Darn, there is a lot to fix on these things, Cal

If you have an R1150RS it will fit your bike. That clutch disc fits all 1150 6speed bikes as well as the R1100S

 

[pglaves]

I have an R1150R with 177,000 miles on the second clutch disk and original input shaft. I haven't looked in a few K miles but can say with assurance that good periodic lubrication is a good thing.

p.s. the nasty engine sounds do not make me happy but are not coming from the clutch.

 

[calsgone]

modified clutch plate also '97 RS ??

Sounds like that better extended spline plate will also fit the r1100RS abs. ?? Not much difference in motors, but I'm far from a pro. I do wonder why BMW didn't just switch to a stacked wet clutch with an oil sump, been used for decades and they have room, oh well.

Looking at a spline lube now at 35 k, unless the owner has paper on recent work. I don't know the service history yet, so I will ask that his shop look into that. We can do a cost vs clutch condition look see before delivery next month. My guarantee is that the bike needs nothing, all service recent and paper on it.

I don't feel that's out of line, he gets a custom built 48 volt electric powered 17 ft. cabin cruiser, trailer etc., as a straight across trade. My boat was figured at over 10 thou. to build it. Been in boat shows, great boat, but the new one is done, don't need 4 boats.

 

[gsaddict]

Sounds like that better extended spline plate will also fit the r1100RS abs. ?? Not much difference in motors, but I'm far from a pro. I do wonder why BMW didn't just switch to a stacked wet clutch with an oil sump, been used for decades and they have room, oh well.

Looking at a spline lube now at 35 k, unless the owner has paper on recent work. I don't know the service history yet, so I will ask that his shop look into that. We can do a cost vs clutch condition look see before delivery next month. My guarantee is that the bike needs nothing, all service recent and paper on it.

I don't feel that's out of line, he gets a custom built 48 volt electric powered 17 ft. cabin cruiser, trailer etc., as a straight across trade. My boat was figured at over 10 thou. to build it. Been in boat shows, great boat, but the new one is done, don't need 4 boats.

The spline projection issue does not apply to the 1100 5 speeds (completely different parts)

It applies to all 1150's and the 1100S 6 speeds

 

[calsgone]

That saved me a bunch of $$ and work !!!!

The spline projection issue does not apply to the 1100 5 speeds (completely different parts)

It applies to all 1150's and the 1100S 6 speeds

Thank You,Thank You !!! Yeah, I will need to check the gear box number on the 1997 -- 1100 RS bike I get, just to be sure. But if I got you right, the clutch spline problem doesn't exist on 1997 year five speeds, just later 6 gear models ?? Possibly more is not always better.

Hummm !! I might think that the 5 speed boxes have longer shafts, or the 6 gear box (frame?) dimensions have grown or changed to fit the extra gear inside, that also makes sense. Not a good case for using the later gears, I like the wider range 5 gear boxes anyway. It almost looks like BMW bowed to the Asian bike invasion right around or before year 2000, and changed some (advertising motivated!) things best left alone.

Many thanks to you and the group, great info. --- Cal

 

[pglaves]

Thank You,Thank You !!! Yeah, I will need to check the gear box number on the 1997 -- 1100 RS bike I get, just to be sure. But if I got you right, the clutch spline problem doesn't exist on 1997 year five speeds, just later 6 gear models ?? Possibly more is not always better.

Hummm !! I might think that the 5 speed boxes have longer shafts, or the 6 gear box (frame?) dimensions have grown or changed to fit the extra gear inside, that also makes sense. Not a good case for using the later gears, I like the wider range 5 gear boxes anyway. It almost looks like BMW bowed to the Asian bike invasion right around or before year 2000, and changed some (advertising motivated!) things best left alone.

Many thanks to you and the group, great info. --- Cal

There are spline issues and then there are spline issues. Input shaft/clutch hub assemblies have required periodic lubrication forever it seems. At one point in the early 1980s BMW specified it as annual maintenance.

Comparing the R1100 and R1150 (and R1100S only) transmissions there is an issue with skimpy spline engagement on the latter - making the problem more severe. But the R1100 bikes indeed require spline lubrication on a periodic basis too. I say every 40,000 miles - others have slightly different opinions.

 

[gsaddict]

But the R1100 bikes indeed require spline lubrication on a periodic basis too. I say every 40,000 miles - others have slightly different opinions.

Good advice.

 

[calsgone]

Spline Relube schedule

Thanks to both of you, again. I will learn how these work yet, the key to a happy owner of almost any vehicle is consistent servicing, on a regular schedule. How others wait till something breaks, and don't plan for good servicing then complain the car, bike, or whatever is bad -- is beyond good sense. And yes stuff happens besides that. My Clymer repair guide has a bunch of sticky notes, and I haven't even ridden the bike yet. AH, the seat feels good, bike looks clean and well cared for, the owner-s, really pleasant. looking forward to an honest deal, and some good boat time with the seller.

Jumping on an unfamiliar bike as a demo, after a 3 hr freeway dawn race, leaves me too frazzed. Especially not one I have no experience with, and they live on a steep hill. However, i was impressed with the obvious care the original owner and now his son in law have put into it. I suspect that they would have preferred I didn't have time to fully know what was needed, -- until titles were exchanged, fair enough.

If not for your kind words and help I could well have needed to spend a lot to get the bike in a fully fair exchange condition from a private party. The trade is fair from fully serviced state, but not with a full service still to be done. BMW's require a bit more hands on from a good tech to "live long, and prosper", also fair enough if you know what needs doing going in. Kinda glad the module needs work, or I might have missed the service due part.

Thanks again, ride safe --- Cal

 

[daveredman]

............... Is there a way to solve this without a 500 dollar or more bill ??........

Speaking from my expereince with '02 1150RT, there is no way to do ANYTHING related to the clutch for $500.
To to ANYTHING related to the clutch requires taking everything off the back end of the bike from the engine back.
I forget exactly, but is something like 12 shop hours just to disassemble and reassemble, not including any other work or parts.

Like this:

I could yack your ear off about the xmission input shaft failure on 02 1150RT, all based on conversations here on this forum (and other) after mine stripped out in 2015.

.

 

[daveredman]

.................................................. I’m not having any issues should I just leave it alone? I kinda figured it had 30,000 on it and I’ve never had it apart it wouldn’t hurt to go give it a look.

I wasn't having any trouble.
THen k-crickchck
and a I was coasting down the highway
z-whirr za-whirr,

THis is the sort of wear you are going to be looking for.

If I say anymore it will get into "the other opinions".