need some help!!! 81 R65 with Snowflake wheels and Avon AM26 Roadrider tires

[wyman.winn]

ok, first off, i have never had trouble changing motorcycle tires on any type of wheel with any type of tires....that said, yesterday i tried, completely in vain, to install a 90/90-18 Avon AM26 Roadrider front tire and tube on a 1981 R65 with snowflake wheels.....i tried all manner of tire lubes from simple Windex to Ru-Glide tire mounting lube....the bead would simply NOT seat...even with as much a 100psi....i tried EVERYTHING to get this bugger to mount...nothing....i gave up an reinstalled the old Metzler that seated normally with only about 25psi of pressure...

i feel defeated with this....my first ever failure to mount a motorcycle tire in nearly 45 years of experience.....

any ideas from the Airhead Clan...??

respectively

wyman

 

[pglaves]

Assuming the wheel rims are thoroughly cleaned so there are no traces of stuck rubber residue I'd be inclined to blame the tire.

 

[20774]

Wyman -

Sorry for the troubles...I typically don't install the rubber myself, I let the motorcycle shops do it, but you seem to have the tools and expertise. Never heard of issues with the Avon brand. Jimmylee had issues with the Michelin Pilot Activ...others have too. Note that the rim profile is different than the spoked rims for the Airheads. I'm wondering if that profile shape is what's causing your difficulties.

 

[henzilla]

Had a clubmate bring two sets of 'flakes a few years ago, not sure which tires.
We had to use a strap hoist around tire tread to push the tire outward to get it to seat on one of them. We laughed AFTERWARDS

 

[SCBuckeye]

Wyman -

Sorry for the troubles...I typically don't install the rubber myself, I let the motorcycle shops do it, but you seem to have the tools and expertise. Never heard of issues with the Avon brand. Jimmylee had issues with the Michelin Pilot Activ...others have too. Note that the rim profile is different than the spoked rims for the Airheads. I'm wondering if that profile shape is what's causing your difficulties.

As mentioned, I also had trouble with my REAR (4.00 x 18) installation of a Michelin Pilot Activ on two occasions. The second occassion was done by a dealer, and he was also unsuccessful. Here is what I did to solve the problem.

I took the wheel off, and put on a fairly large manual lathe with a "lathe dog" to make sure it turned. I used the original axle to turn it on so the dog kept the wheel turning with the axle and eliminated the bearing turning. This also allowed me to make sure that everything ran "true" with the rotation of the wheel on the axle.

I then proceeded to "turn" down the surface of the wheel that the tire bead runs on (inner diameter of tire, not the side of the bead) down a few thousands - probably around .040" from the diameter. Note that it takes more from the wheel as you approach the center of the wheel, not the sides. I then proceeded to polish the snot out of the rim, so that it practically glistened it was so smooth on that surface. I also made sure as noted above that there was NO old tire or dirt residue anywhere inside the wheel.

I then took the wheel back to the dealer who then installed the tire and it seated perfectly. I am glad I did, as I got the correct period size tire (4.00 x 18 as was originally on the bike) but was also then equipped with the newer style tire treads that, in my opinion, wear much better then the older style treads did back in the day!

The key is to NOT take off too much of the inner surface of the wheel, but just enough to allow the tire to seat. Polishing also helped the tire to 'slide" towards the edge of the wheel. Be sure to use very good lube.

Also, one other thing I did was to coat several coats of pure silicone inside the wheel to also "fill the pores" of the aluminum to make it even slipperier.

 

[wyman.winn]

As mentioned, I also had trouble with my REAR (4.00 x 18) installation of a Michelin Pilot Activ on two occasions. The second occassion was done by a dealer, and he was also unsuccessful. Here is what I did to solve the problem.

I took the wheel off, and put on a fairly large manual lathe with a "lathe dog" to make sure it turned. I used the original axle to turn it on so the dog kept the wheel turning with the axle and eliminated the bearing turning. This also allowed me to make sure that everything ran "true" with the rotation of the wheel on the axle.

I then proceeded to "turn" down the surface of the wheel that the tire bead runs on (inner diameter of tire, not the side of the bead) down a few thousands - probably around .040" from the diameter. Note that it takes more from the wheel as you approach the center of the wheel, not the sides. I then proceeded to polish the snot out of the rim, so that it practically glistened it was so smooth on that surface. I also made sure as noted above that there was NO old tire or dirt residue anywhere inside the wheel.

I then took the wheel back to the dealer who then installed the tire and it seated perfectly. I am glad I did, as I got the correct period size tire (4.00 x 18 as was originally on the bike) but was also then equipped with the newer style tire treads that, in my opinion, wear much better then the older style treads did back in the day!

The key is to NOT take off too much of the inner surface of the wheel, but just enough to allow the tire to seat. Polishing also helped the tire to 'slide" towards the edge of the wheel. Be sure to use very good lube.

Also, one other thing I did was to coat several coats of pure silicone inside the wheel to also "fill the pores" of the aluminum to make it even slipperier.

Jimmy,

so to be clear...you "turned down" the bead area that is parallel to the axle to a slight inward taper by, you say, about .040"....yes?

thanks for your reply....i am leaning towards the fact that the "bead land' is not capable of accepting the Roadriders....

wyman

 

[ocoinji]

I've had two sets of Avon's on my snowflake wheels with tubes. I installed them myself with not to much difficulty. I do remember a small portion of the circumference, maybe 4 or 5 inches, being a little stubborn. As i was thinking of what to do about it it popped into place and made me jump. Switched brands this spring though. Wasn't happy with the wear rate of the rear. Good luck.

 

[DanHoug]

i've got an 81 R100RT with snowflake and do my own tires... did the Avon Roadrider at a previous tire change but wasn't impressed with the wear so i've gone to the Michelin Active. but i think the rough casting surface makes difficult bead popping on the rim as i've had a bugger of a time getting the Avon and the Michelin to seat, while other rims pop nicely. using true tire lube, as you have, is important. also, it seems to need to be hit with a blast of air while the tire is warm. i drilled out a locking tire chuck for greater flow and operate the air via a valve at the compressor. even still, these Michelins never popped. the bead indicator rubber strip was even the entire circumfrence of the tire so i eventually just called it a draw. tire has a couple thousand miles on now and it is seated fine, but it never gave that satisfying pop.

i think the previous poster that machined his snowflake to smooth out the casting is on the right track. one can physically feel the roughness of the snowflake bead seat area compared to other rims.

 

[lkchris]

A fairly typical problem and symptomatic of installing tubeless tires on wheels requiring tubes. If you could find some tube-type tires it would be easier but that's mostly wishful thinking in the USA.

 

[SCBuckeye]

A fairly typical problem and symptomatic of installing tubeless tires on wheels requiring tubes. If you could find some tube-type tires it would be easier but that's mostly wishful thinking in the USA.

I don't think this is true. Many tubeless types work fine (using the recommended tube as well), but I was convinced that my issue was with the Michelins being made to more exacting specs than earlier tires were made. I did, however, have zero problems installing the Michelin Pilot Activ on my front wheel (19") but hat the issues with the rear (18").

Also what makes a difference is the tire sizes - using the current designation tires (for example: 190/80 - 18) seems to me to be a little more forgiving in fitting, however, in my opinion, also defeats the purpose of the original design using tires with the standard designation size (for example: 4.00 x 18) which is the period size for my R100.) I wanted to keep the period size and Michelin Pilot Activ is available like that.

When I purchased my bike a few years ago, it had Dunlops which were the newer designator size. I wanted to go to period size. When the first time I couldn't get the Pilot Active to seat, I purchased a period size "Vintage" size Dunlop tire. Right size, but terrible tread which wore out in less than a year.

After modifying my Snowflake, the Michelin Pilot Active period size fit fine, and I have been thrilled with the feel and the ride and the wear. Wouldn't go back.

 

[SCBuckeye]

Jimmy,

so to be clear...you "turned down" the bead area that is parallel to the axle to a slight inward taper by, you say, about .040"....yes?

thanks for your reply....i am leaning towards the fact that the "bead land' is not capable of accepting the Roadriders....

wyman

If you would like me to describe further, and even send sketches, I will through email. Email me at jlcampbell1@juno.com.

I don't remember where the original thread is, but Kurt would know, as I had sent pics about a year ago of the "profile" of the inner surfaces of the Snowflake wheels. It is true, that the area where the tire finally seats has a larger diameter (perpendicular to axle) than does the same surface as you go in from the outer seating edge towards the middle of the wheel. That larger diameter is where I removed material to make it more like the final seating area. I think, if I remember correctly, this amounted to around .020" per side, or a total of around .040" in diameter.

You may have to do some experimenting. I would be sure to not take off too much. Rather be conservative and then you can do more if needed. However, you need a tire installer who will be patient with you as you may do the process several times. Also, I have been a machinist for over 40 years, so I had the technical ability, and the available machinery to do my own work on the wheel. So, I didn't have to bug someone else.

You want it to spin true to the axle (perpendicularity and diametral). That's why I wanted to do the process with the bearings installed, and using the axle as my turning center.

However don't be too alarmed as a few thousandths off here or there is probably what they were when machined new!

 

[20774]

Jimmy -

Thread was here:

http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?70341-Request-for-Pictures-Tire-Rim-Profiles

 

[6322]

Though I haven't mounted the mentioned Avons, I probably mount twenty or more tires in my garage per year. Besides the mounting techniques mentioned, try using a heat gun on the the portion that won't come up on bead. Do this while it's under pressure, probably 60 - 80 psi. Using this technique I haven't had a tire defeat me. Ride easy, gp

 

[wyman.winn]

Though I haven't mounted the mentioned Avons, I probably mount twenty or more tires in my garage per year. Besides the mounting techniques mentioned, try using a heat gun on the the portion that won't come up on bead. Do this while it's under pressure, probably 60 - 80 psi. Using this technique I haven't had a tire defeat me. Ride easy, gp

THAT may just be the ticket....

thanks!!!!!

 

[James.A]

Though I haven't mounted the mentioned Avons, I probably mount twenty or more tires in my garage per year. Besides the mounting techniques mentioned, try using a heat gun on the the portion that won't come up on bead. Do this while it's under pressure, probably 60 - 80 psi. Using this technique I haven't had a tire defeat me. Ride easy, gp

Similarly, I had success getting the final "pop" on a stubborn tire. In my case I set the wheel with tire installed outdoors for several hours in sub-freezing temperatures. It was inflated to around 90lb.PSI. Later I propped it up in front of my torpedo salamander garage heater and walked away. An hour later it was seated all the way around.

 

[SCBuckeye]

I, too, tried the tire out in the hot sun on a day when the temp was near 80 deg. Didn't work!

 

[henzilla]

Where is that youtube video posted here about using ether starting spray and a spark

 

[6322]

Where is that youtube video posted here about using ether starting spray and a spark

Now there's some heat for ya!

 

[henzilla]

found it

 

[pglaves]

It is unclear in this whole thread whether the OP is using a tube. Is this another tubless tire on a tube type rim adventure??