my thoughts on the future of BMW and BMW MOA

[R80RTJohnny]

I would like to comment to all the younger members who, at this time, are not able to afford a 20K + bike in their stable. Not all of us who are fortunate to have these new machines came by them easily. Years of hard work and sacrifice have afforded us these opportunities to make selective purchases based on on ability to earn/pay. I never dreamed that I would have the chance to order a new bike and call the shots and options and color.

When I joined the MOA in my early 20's I was like you and did not understand how others could do it. Having gotten older I can now appreciate having both my beloved airhead and hexhead in the garage patiently waiting for spring.

I agree though that the content of the ON should be more inclusive and start showing younger riders on refurbished bikes (R/K and F) having a great time enjoying the road and life.

You already have something that most 20 something's do not - A love for BMW bikes.

Happy riding!

 

[rockbottom]

I sense your affinity for the F800ST - perhaps the perfect bike for you.

Just elaborated on what I'd like to see in a bike in the 800 cc range - more protection, cruise and cargo capacity are big deals for me, but that's just me.

Ride Safe and Happy on whatever your mount!

I put about 34K on an F800ST and about 400 miles on an R1200RT. I guess it comes down to one's riding style, but if I had choose between the two, I'd figure that the greater agility and fuel mileage of the F compensates for the advantages of the R given that most of my riding is not two up, long distance touring with a full load. I really didn't find that much difference in the protection offered by the faring on the two. I don't do much riding where I'd use cruise control but, if I did, I would have added a Throttlemeister to the F.

My guess is that for most re-entry or new riders, agility and maneuverability trump carrying capacity.

(I now have an R1200R with a touring package which, to me, has the same maneuverability and grin factor as the F with the carrying capacity of an RT).

 

[88bmwjeff]

I'm not seeing it. The faring on the the F800ST is adequate. The fuel tank is smaller than an RT but the range is about the same given the increased gas mileage. When expanded, the side cases are about 75% of the volume of RT ones. It's just as easy to strap a duffel to it. So you're talking about a whole new bike just for cruise control and adjustable windshield. My guess would be that not many people would pay a premium over the F800ST for that.

I think it comes down to riding position. I rode the F800ST, and found myself leaning too far forward for me. As such, I would not consider this bike for purchase. The RT's typically has a more upright riding position. All this has nothing to do with the ability of each bike, but rather personal preference on riding position.

 

[rockbottom]

I think it comes down to riding position. I rode the F800ST, and found myself leaning too far forward for me. As such, I would not consider this bike for purchase. The RT's typically has a more upright riding position. All this has nothing to do with the ability of each bike, but rather personal preference on riding position.

The F riding position is slightly more bent than the R position, but not by much. People bothered by it just add bar risers.

 

[samuelh]

Man this thread and I are on the same wavelength.

I'd buy an f800rt tomorrow.

The f800st seating position is too forward for me.

Interesting comments about the R1200R. Is this a physically smaller bike than the 1200GS? Cause the 12GS is a lot bigger than an F and my G, maybe not to the extent that it is unmanageable (particularly with low suspension.)

 

[ka5ysy]

Man this thread and I are on the same wavelength.

I'd buy an f800rt tomorrow.

The f800st seating position is too forward for me.

Interesting comments about the R1200R. Is this a physically smaller bike than the 1200GS? Cause the 12GS is a lot bigger than an F and my G, maybe not to the extent that it is unmanageable (particularly with low suspension.)

Unlike the GS or even the RT, most riders find that they can flatfoot the R1200R with the standard seat without a lot of trouble. It weighs 80 pounds or so less than the RT, and carries the same luggage. With a proper windscreen it has much of the protection of the RT, and is much more comfortable in hot weather. The only thing the RR gives away to the GS is slightly less suspension, and the ABS cannot be disabled. It is very, very easy to harass crotch-rockets in the twisties too

One of the R1200R board members, Chitown (Joe), is well known to do things with his RR that makes the GS owners scratch their heads.

 

[Anyname]

How are they targeting men? What's different about females? Would a female wrenching session really be beneficial to the BMW/BMWMOA or more uncomfortable/embarrassing?

How are women different? How is it you're still single?

To respond seriously, women tend to be shorter and have less upper body strength. My wife is about 5'1" tall and weighs about 120lb. There are very few off the shelf motorcycles she can ride (by ride I mean deal with tip overs without help and back it up hill out of a parking space unassisted, she is quite capable of riding many bikes on the open road). Even the Ninja 250 she owned had to be lowered front and rear. She also tried a Suzuki Bergman, which would have been OK if it didn't weigh 480lbs. Yeah, she could handle a Honda Rebel, but that's not exactly a highway capable machine.

I have always suspected that one reason Harley did well with women and and first time riders was the low saddle height and easy low speed handling. BMW is not exactly a short person's motorcycle company.

As far as pink motorcycles go very few of the women riders I have met seem to be looking for that feature. If someone tasked me with providing the requirements for a woman friendly motorcycle, I would say:

- Low seat
- Low center of gravity
- Weight under 400 Lbs
- Highway capable (i.e. fast enough cruise with and accelerate with a group of other motorcycles)
- Build the motor for torque and mid-range
- Provide an option for luggage system
- Provide an option for wind protection
- Bonus points for an electric reverse gear like on a Gold Wing (if the Bergman had this feature, my wife would still own hers, but backing up hill out of parking spaces was not in the cards for her. This meant she never used it unless we were riding together)
- Don't style it like a baby Harley, the feet forward riding position stinks and the cruiser look embarrasses some people)

An F800ST is close, but too tall and still a bit heavy.

 

[rockbottom]

Is this a physically smaller bike than the 1200GS? Cause the 12GS is a lot bigger than an F and my G, maybe not to the extent that it is unmanageable (particularly with low suspension.)

I think there's only about 25 lbs of difference between the F800ST and my R1200R, and the height is about the same. But I like those 24 extra horses!

 

[pglaves]

My experience with an F would have pushed me to Triumph if not for geography (my BMW dealer is five miles from my house and the Triumph dealer is 35).

Every time I read something like this I laugh out loud. There is almost nothing within 5 miles of my house and the nearest motorcycle dealership of any brand is over 200 miles away. The nearest BMW dealership is almost 450 miles away.

I have never, ever in my life lived closer than 50 miles to a BMW dealership and in all liklihood never will.

 

[bmwgsrider]

I think the future of both the BMW brand and the BMW MOA need to reach out to each other in order to not only survive these tough economic times but to thrive and grow over the next 5 + years.

I will start with the BMW brand:

I think BMW is missing a large segment of the market by not targeting the returning rider as well as the female rider. There are lots of people out there that stopped riding early in life due to work, family commitment etc. these people are now a bit older, perhaps approaching retirement and have some free time on there hands. The days of retiring and buying a big motor home to travel the country are pretty much over. Between the large initial financial out lay for the motor home there is the high cost of gas/diesel fuel & insurance. Buying that big boat to cruise around on is quickly loosing its appeal for the same reasons, large initial cash outlay as well as dock feeÔÇÖs, maintenance and rising fuel costs. A motorcycle on the other hand is relatively cheap, gets good fuel mileage and it doesnÔÇÖt cost an arm and a leg to insure.

The female rider is a segment long overlooked by many motorcycle manufactures. Woman today are just as inclined to want to spend there free time in pursuit of an activity that offers a low initial cash outlay, as well as the fun and excitement only riding a motorcycle can offer. Harley offers lots of various functions aimed solely at the female rider and I think BMW should follow suit and do the same thing. Offering free seminars showing woman how to work on there bikes as well as specific rides or events that are geared toward woman are just two examples of ways BMW can embrace and welcome the female riders out there.

So now you have the returning riders and the female riders interested in the BMW brand what bike should they buy? If BMW made a new 650 boxer designed for the returning rider/female rider at a low initial cost I think they would have a big hit on their hands. It would combine the retro look and feel of old without all the problems and pitfalls the older bikes had. look at the success Triumph is having with the new Bonneville. Of course the new BMW would have to be very reliable, the last thing a new rider wants is a bike that is constantly in the shop for repairs. That is a sure fire way to have them abandoning the brand and running straight to the nearest Harley dealership.

Speaking of dealerships BMW needs to expand its dealer network. Offering a nice new 650 boxer, or any other bike designed toward a new or returning rider may sound appealing to you but if the nearest dealer is 3 + hours away your not going to go and check it out, not when there is a dealership right down the street selling a brand that everyone recognizes, some friends and co-workers may ride and offers models geared toward the new or returning rider as well as the female rider. The cold hard reality is there are not enough BMW dealers in this county to make owning a BMW a viable option to most people.

Another bike I think BMW needs to develop is a mini RT, something along the lines of an 800cc with belt drive and good wind protection. Kind of sounds like a few changes to a F800ST would make this happen relatively quickly. Once you get someone riding a mini RT the next logical step up for them is the 1200 RT. Harley has long known one of the secrets to success is getting customers to not only buy there first bike but to continually want to upgrade to a larger model.

So now we have the new/returning rider and the female rider in the dealership and buying there first bike. This is where BMW and BMW MOA come together. The dealership needs to give a free 1 year membership to the MOA to each and every one that buys a new bike. Once they start receiving the ON mag they will see a whole new world of motorcycling out there they may not have know about. Let them read about the rallies, the rides and the tech articles. Let the see the vast amount of accessories offered by various vendors for there bikes, but most importantly let them see there are lots of other people just like them in the MOA who will welcome them with open arms just because of the brand of bike they ride. Remember people want to belong to a group, whether it is the local church group, the firehouse or the local softball team, everyone wants to feel they belong and have something in common with others. I think a lot of the new riders will look forward to reading the Owners News each month and when there free 1 year membership expires they will gladly renew it. This will easily allow the MOA to expand its membership. The problem is getting BMW and the dealerships to work hand in hand with the MOA. To me, this is a win-win situation for everyone involved. BMW will be getting new customers and promoting the sport of motorcycling, the MOA will increase its membership and the dealerships will increase there sales of not only motorcycles but of apparel and accessories as well. Remember these new riders will need all new gear and what better place to buy it then at your friendly BMW dealer.

I am sure this little scenario I have laid out is full of potential problems and pitfalls but in the long run I honestly believe it is in the best interest of not only BMW NA but BMW MOA as well. A partnership between these two entities, if done properly can only be beneficial to both parties. In order for the brand to survive they need a loyal customer base as well as attracting new customers and in order for the MOA to survive and grow we need to support of the manufacture, thus ensuring both parties will prosper and grow into the foreseeable future.

Good post NYTrashman.

The only thing I like to add is that BMW is geared more towards the taller riders as the seats heights are getting taller. In order for BMW to sell more bikes and compared to other brands, they need to gear their market to the shorter people with more factory low bike options on all models to where a vertically challenged person is able to ride a bike he/she would like to buy.

There are flaws in the design of BMW's and BMW doesn't want to admit the flaws but the quality and the designs needs to be changed to where BMW doesn't lose those who have constant problems with his/her bike to where they will decide to move on to a different make. There are known problems with different model bikes that BMW doesn't want to admit and change the flaws.

It would be nice to have more BMW dealers but BMW is so strict they are losing a lot of dealers because of meeting the high criteria that BMW is requiring. I have known several dealers give up BMW line due to this factor.

Everyone that hears the BMW thinks that BMW motorcycles are expensive... more expensive than Harley brand. If more folks would realize that BMW's aren't as expensive as one thinks as well perhaps there would be more folks buying BMW brand.

Not only having classes for women learning how to work in their bikes... gear to classes for both male and female.

Female riders also need to learn how to not be intimidated by a male as their are many good guys that are willing to help a female rider.

Its nice to meet and make wonderful friends and having a good riding partner... and its nice to keep a good friend once you find them.

 

[Ken F]

How do you market to that? To me, it seems like the returning rider is the main customer. Yeah, there are life-long riders (a lot of which seem to dislike the dealerships), but time and again someone sees Neal Peart on a GS, remembers that they used to have some old jap bike and some old american drumset, and decides to dump 30 grand in a GS and all the farkles, and the whale ___skin suit and crank up the Rush for air-drum solos.

How are they targeting men? What's different about females? Would a female wrenching session really be beneficial to the BMW/BMWMOA or more uncomfortable/embarrassing?

What problems and pitfalls?

I've suggested the 1 year membership thing before, but.. hell, it's only $40. Why not throw it in with any decent purchase at the dealership (not just a $20000 bike)?

But, although I am in the strange (sub-)culture of the Airheads, basically every BMW owner I talk to about the ON says they read about 10% of it. I guarantee you I read much less than that. I look at the magazine backwards; classifieds, Paul Glaves articles (oh, something about a K-bike? next!) and Matt Parkhouses (oh, he's lubing clutch splines? next!) and can't remember the last time I really read any of it. (Ooh boy someone went to the Alps, Patagonia, South Africa? Good for them.. next!) The magazine alone would NOT be worth the dues to me. I've paid my dues (6 years now) for the anonymous book (why's it anonymous, by the way?) and to keep in touch with (and meet) the people I know through the forums. So, those arms are opened with face-time.

I think the younger generations are a better market for all of the above suggestions, except 1) there's just something about the MOA that doesn't appeal to youngsters (unless their parents are already members), and 2) no youngster's going to be able to afford a new bike (unless their parents paid for it).

I don't know if these organizations can target specific groups, really. BMW has a fine product (which ultimately isn't supposed to be watered down (it's a luxury vehicle)) and I think if they just sell their product (and the "lifestyle") they'll do fine. I don't think a run of pink GS's, or RS's with training wheels, would do very well.

Nathan, how did you get so smart so fast? lol You are wise beyond your years.
460

 

[rockbottom]

The only thing I like to add is that BMW is geared more towards the taller riders as the seats heights are getting taller.

That seems to be a European thing in general. I don't think there's a Ducati or Triumph under 32 inches except their retro models.

 

[bmwgsrider]

That seems to be a European thing in general. I don't think there's a Ducati or Triumph under 32 inches except their retro models.

That's the problem... I am very limited on what bike I can ride let alone lucky I can even ride a BMW because I have a 26" inseam... there are many vertically challenged folks that would like to be able to ride... how can they ride if they can't touch? Or those who like to feel more comfortable being able to flat foot versus tippy toe.

 

[crazydrummerdude]

a Honda Rebel, but that's not exactly a highway capable machine.

Exactly. I rode to the MSF - BRC on my R75 and rode a Rebel for the class. What a wimpy bike! My mom was looking into motorcycles for a while and I steered her away from the Rebel.

Don't style it like a baby Harley, the feet forward riding position stinks and the cruiser look embarrasses some people

+1

Female riders also need to learn how to not be intimidated by a male as their are many good guys that are willing to help a female rider.

Maybe there is a generational side-effect happening here. I don't know how to classify my point of view: modern, traditional, wrong? Anyways, I see women as.... people. Capable and adaptable much like myself. I never considered a "women-only" or "women-oriented" class/seminar in good taste. I just picture it as a pink, frilly embarrassment. How about just a regular class/seminar?

But, I think women do have their own taste. If they like motorcycles, they'll find a bike that suits them whether it be BMW or not. Why should BMW regroup and focus on a demographic that supposedly isn't even that large within the industry?

I once owned a lawncare business. Should I have poured money and time into getting astro-turf installation machines, because someone out there probably has it and his/her neighbor might want it; or should I have just continued doing a kickass job cutting grass and getting customers by word of mouth (and existing advertising)? There is definitely a cut-off point and BMW probably pays some nerd* to know right where it is. (* I'm a nerd, I can say that.)

Nathan, how did you get so smart so fast? lol You are wise beyond your years.

You're joking, right?

 

[bmwgsrider]

How are they targeting men? What's different about females? Would a female wrenching session really be beneficial to the BMW/BMWMOA or more uncomfortable/embarrassing?

Are you stereotyping against a female? Why do you think a wrenching session isn't beneficial for a female who wants to learn how to wrench? Its not just females as there are a lot of guys who would like to learn how to wrench too!


Why do you think it would be uncomfortable let alone embarrassing for a female to learn how to wrench or let alone a guy?

Don't you think that a female or even a male would be a little more comfortable traveling on a bike if they have at least some knowledge about the bike if by chance it breaks down and possibly something that is easily fixed while alongside the road versus not knowing what to do?

 

[mika]

Dealers:
I have had the luxury of dealers closer than Paul but not always by much and so find myself laughing with him about many of the dealer comments.

BMW’s business model calls for about 150 dealers in the US. They have been able to maintain that through the past decade. Where those dealers are has shifted as has the customer base.

If they wanted more where would they find them? For much of the decade an H-D dealership appeared to be a place licensed to print money for the owner. Their numbers are declining because 1) they are making it and going out of business, 2) H-D realizes there are too many and plans attrition in the double digit range to bring the balance back to profitability for the dealer and the company. Honda and the rest of the UJM four went through the same thing.

IF they expand their dealer numbers in the US it will come out of sorting out both the BMW and Husqvarna network and dealer contracts.


Post #12
My body is aging into the old fart range but I my mind I am +many with Nathan.
I will add BMW has sold over 100,000 bikes in the past decade in the US. While a fair number of them went to us why aren’t our numbers bigger? What we offer is great for those who use it, while we are demanding BMW expand their horizons shouldn’t we look at ourselves at the same time?

Models:
The various Roadster models are grossly undervalued by our community. They provide a great platform for many riders. They can be taken in so many different directions when combined with aftermarket/owner designed parts.

I would like to see BMW add a 250cc and larger single cyl. model to their line up and have written elsewhere about that.

To get a lower saddle height you will have to go to a more feet forward bike. Given BMW’s inability to generate sales for the C line and their market research which has told them they need a V-twin to participate in that segment; don’t expect one to appear any time soon.

From a business standpoint we are struggling with membership while BMW has been out running the US market for the last two years. For all our concerns and suggestions they must be doing a little bit right.

 

[Ken F]

You're joking, right?

No, in fact I was dead earnest!

Ken

 

[kstoo]

If I was buying a new bike today BMW would be the last place that I would look. Marketing the fastest production motorcycle in the world that is useful for doing tablecloth tricks and 6-cylinder wonder bikes is the farthest thing from what i would be interested in. I ride year round, I ride everywhere. I don't want to have to consider where the nearest dealer is 'cause I don't want a bike that has to be hooked up to his computer to get fixed. I don't want something that costs more than any car that I ever bought. I want something that is useful at all times and in all places and at all times and is fun. If it breaks I want first dibs at fixing it. Yeah, I ride airheads. I ride BMW's that are more modern than CDD's /6s but still are simple and sufficient.
I have a game that I like to play sometimes that is called "If I Had To Buy a Motorcycle Today". I go online and look at stuff and try to figure the best candidate. BMW doesn't ever win. Some winners that I can remember are:

• Guzzi Breva 750
• Guzzi V7 Classic
• Triumph Bonneville
• Suzuki DR650
• Kawasaki Versys
• even Harley Sporsters have been on the list but would require modification immediately.

Currently, if I had to buy a motorcycle today it would be a Triumph Bonneville T100 1960 Anniversary Edition that would get outfitted with Hepco Becker Junior 40 Litre luggage and engine guards and a tank bag, oh, and RAM mounts for the GPS, and I would be ready to go. I would not fool around with a windshield or fairing unless I could find something as useful and light as a airhead RS or RT fairing. I might have to spend some time modifying an Airtech to satisfy that need.
OK, I filled out the survey, now you BMW marketing people know where my checkbook comes out.

 

[crazydrummerdude]

Are you stereotyping against a female?

No. I am "stereotyping against" the idea that a woman is some ignorant being that has to be catered to.

Why do you think a wrenching session isn't beneficial for a female who wants to learn how to wrench?

I think a wrenching session would be quite beneficial to women and men! So, why cater it to either?

Why do you think it would be uncomfortable let alone embarrassing for a female to learn how to wrench or let alone a guy?

As I said, an image appears in my mind with pink and frilly lace and some over-peppy key note speaker saying "Hey girls, you can do it, too!"

Don't you think that a female or even a male would be a little more comfortable traveling on a bike if they have at least some knowledge about the bike if by chance it breaks down and possibly something that is easily fixed while alongside the road versus not knowing what to do?

Ahoy, matey! That's why I ride and work on an airhead, and soak up more knowledge than I share.

 

[marchyman]

The various Roadster models are grossly undervalued by our community. They provide a great platform for many riders. They can be taken in so many different directions when combined with aftermarket/owner designed parts.

The F800R looks quite modifiable and at under $9K not an outrageous cost (or has the '11 model gone up in price?). Back in the day people turned an R90/6 into a tourer. I don't see any reason you couldn't do the same with the F800R if that's your desire.

Don't know why it is ignored.