Eschewing Newer Motorcycles

[kbasa]

I'm stuck in the middle ground here...

I like EFI rather than carbs... EFI doesn't go south quite as easily. Sure, old gas will make it run kinda crappy, but the fix is pouring in some fresh gas. Old gas in a carb often means taking the carb out and cleaning it.
I like ABS... it's not required, but it's nice to have during a panic stop for when I mess up and give the brakes a bit too much pressure. ABS tends to correct a skid faster than I do.

On the other hand, *NEW* bikes seem to have gone tech overboard. I'm scared to know what that fancy LCD screen is going to cost when it breaks 10 or 15 years from now.

I can find aftermarket speedos and tachs for my *old* bikes... change out faulty power switches for the AUX lights and GPS mounts... but that fancy LCD screen is entirely dedicated to that specific bike.
There is no aftermarket for it, and that is a scary thought. If the screen dies, you have no option but to buy it directly from the manufacturer, who may or may not still build them.

I see a future where a perfectly good motorcycle is non-operable and deemed worthless because a damaged LCD screen would cost multiple thousands of $$$ to replace.
I hope I'm wrong and these LCDs just keep getting cheaper & cheaper where a replacement is only a couple hundred $$ instead.

BMW's Canbus seems to be open, so I think there's an opportunity for replacement instruments at some point when there might be demand.

 

[Visian]

F900R/XR, S1000R not RR, kind of in that weight range.

...I think I'd like something more in the 450 pound range.

I test-rode both the F900XR and S1000XR at Daytona. The 900 was meh, the 1000 was a rocker. Really nice bike now that it's no longer buzzy. At 500lbs wet, the 1000's weight was ok because I could reach with both feet. Honestly, I did not dare to put it in dynamic mode.

Knowing that you're a Honda buff, you really should check out the new Hornet. That's around 450 and all reports is the engine is extraordinary. I was really disappointed with the Honda exhibit... no new Hornet or Transalp and only test rides on lame scooters in between haybales.

The midrange Yamahas were very nice (T7 and MT-07) I was underwhelmed with the Tracer GT.

 

[RadioFlyer]

BMW's Canbus seems to be open, so I think there's an opportunity for replacement instruments at some point when there might be demand.

What do you mean when you say "open"? Are you saying that BMW has made available the proprietary messages that pass amongst the various controllers? If not then there is no way to replicate the functionality of the Kombi.

 

[kbasa]

What do you mean when you say "open"? Are you saying that BMW has made available the proprietary messages that pass amongst the various controllers? If not then there is no way to replicate the functionality of the Kombi.

If you poke around on YouTube a little, most of how it works appears to be understood, which has brought about tools like EZCan which plug into the harness and allow you to control accessories via the wonder wheel. Similarly, you can get a gizmo that connects your phone to your bike and allows you to display data on your phone, kind of like a second dashboard.

https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/i...n-and-communication/connectedride-cradle.html

The protocols and ways CanBus is used are becoming less and less of an obstacle to modifying and maintaining your bike. I saw another video that basically broke down BMW CanBus, so most of the comms it uses are now documented.

If there's a market for failed instruments, expect to see something, likely a software solution that feeds out to your phone or something.

My Boxster uses CanBus and by using an OBDII reader, I can control various factory settings from a $150 device. If I spend $60 on a chip for it, it'll work my wife's Audi, too, or any other CanBus equipped vehicle.

It's no longer black box, I think.

 

[RadioFlyer]

If you poke around on YouTube a little, most of how it works appears to be understood, which has brought about tools like EZCan which plug into the harness and allow you to control accessories via the wonder wheel. Similarly, you can get a gizmo that connects your phone to your bike and allows you to display data on your phone, kind of like a second dashboard.

https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/i...n-and-communication/connectedride-cradle.html

The protocols and ways CanBus is used are becoming less and less of an obstacle to modifying and maintaining your bike. I saw another video that basically broke down BMW CanBus, so most of the comms it uses are now documented.

If there's a market for failed instruments, expect to see something, likely a software solution that feeds out to your phone or something.

My Boxster uses CanBus and by using an OBDII reader, I can control various factory settings from a $150 device. If I spend $60 on a chip for it, it'll work my wife's Audi, too, or any other CanBus equipped vehicle.

It's no longer black box, I think.

In fact only a small fraction of what passes through the CAN-bus is in the open.

The Wonder Wheel does not even use the CAN-bus but rather it uses the LIN-bus. Some LIN-bus messages are replicated on the CAN-bus.

The ezCAN does monitor the CAN-bus for certain message types. For the most part these are the non-proprietary messages necessitated by adherence to OBD requirements.

The ezCAN owes most of its ability to control devices due to its LIN-bus connection.

The comms with BMW's proprietary Connected Ride app has little to do with the CAN-bus.

I doubt very much that "most" of BMW's CAN-bus messaging is documented. One should not confuse the industry standard messages with the proprietary stuff.

Sure you can replicate some rudimentary instrument functionality using the industry standard OBD stuff and Motoscan and HEX have made some inroads into diagnostics and coding but even they are struggling to keep pace with the increasing functionality being implemented by BMW.

I think that a facsimile of the modern TFTs is highly unlikely because BMW won't be sharing the required technical detail and hacking it won't be worthwhile for the limited market for TFT replacements.

If one is interested in keeping a new BMW for a long time one should look carefully at getting some kind of extended warranty or service plan and be "insured" against the possibility of a very expensive failure down the road. A lot of owners don't care because they trade bikes frequently.

The days when a BMW motorcycle can be considered a true "adventure" motorcycle are over. As previous commenters have said when you are far from a dealership simpler is better.

 

[kbasa]

To think that where we are is where we will stay is a bad bet.

It's happening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4w9XQXcsMk

Here's what's happening over in BMW car land, specifically BMW E90/92s. This guy is reading the Canbus and basically building his own display systems in his car. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttZ9ajQwT3A

It's not impenetrable and the tools are coming. Note how he's monitoring responses in the software and is able to understand what code is getting passed. Appropriate for non-software nerds? Probably not yet. But once the mapping is sorted, well, build an interface around that knowledge.

 

[52184]

I think that a facsimile of the modern TFTs is highly unlikely because BMW won't be sharing the required technical detail and hacking it won't be worthwhile for the limited market for TFT replacements.

I think that’s very true. Acewell, VDO, etc. won’t see a market potential that overrides the development cost. The only possibility might be a universal sort of TFT that could be adapted to work with CAN BUS and LIN BUS implementations from a variety of bike mfgrs, but even then it’s not likely to pan out. So yeah, your fancy but older ADV bike might be totaled if the TFT dies and is too costly or unavailable. Kind of like the K1200LTs that were totaled in parking lot tips when the engine guard bar punched a hole in the bike’s aluminum frame. We’ll be mounting bicycle speedometers, I guess, or taking the hit and moving on.

The days when a BMW motorcycle can be considered a true "adventure" motorcycle are over. As previous commenters have said when you are far from a dealership simpler is better.

Amen. I’m in the planning stages of swapping out my R80G/S PD for a simple, single-cylinder bike more suited to old guy putt-putting on backroads and single-tracks. BMW doesn’t make a bike in that segment since the demise of the F650GS singles (no, the G310GS doesn’t work for a “man of certain size” with gear), so I took a fancy to the KTM 690. Complicated, scant dealer network, and reliability questions ruled that out, along with a subframe/fuel tank setup that I didn’t feel comfortable with. Current leading candidate is the Suzuki DR650S—a very straightforward and proven design with scads of aftermarket goodies available.

And, I can buy a genuine factory service manual with the bike. (mike drop)

Best,
DeVern

 

[RadioFlyer]

I think that’s very true. Acewell, VDO, etc. won’t see a market potential that overrides the development cost. The only possibility might be a universal sort of TFT that could be adapted to work with CAN BUS and LIN BUS implementations from a variety of bike mfgrs, but even then it’s not likely to pan out. So yeah, your fancy but older ADV bike might be totaled if the TFT dies and is too costly or unavailable. Kind of like the K1200LTs that were totaled in parking lot tips when the engine guard bar punched a hole in the bike’s aluminum frame. We’ll be mounting bicycle speedometers, I guess, or taking the hit and moving on.



Amen. I’m in the planning stages of swapping out my R80G/S PD for a simple, single-cylinder bike more suited to old guy putt-putting on backroads and single-tracks. BMW doesn’t make a bike in that segment since the demise of the F650GS singles (no, the G310GS doesn’t work for a “man of certain size” with gear), so I took a fancy to the KTM 690. Complicated, scant dealer network, and reliability questions ruled that out, along with a subframe/fuel tank setup that I didn’t feel comfortable with. Current leading candidate is the Suzuki DR650S—a very straightforward and proven design with scads of aftermarket goodies available.

And, I can buy a genuine factory service manual with the bike. <mike drop>

Best,
DeVern

Another analogy is air bags in cars. The insurance companies write-off many cars not because the cost of the collision damage repair is uneconomical but rather the cost of replacing deployed air bags is.

On one of the German language BMW motorcycle forums that I follow there is a long running thread on the Yamaha Tenere 700. It seems to have struck the right balance between being modern yet simple and reliable enough to merit serious consideration as a true adventure bike. And of course you can get a printed service manual from Yamaha!

 

[crna59]

I see a future where a perfectly good motorcycle is non-operable and deemed worthless because a damaged LCD screen would cost multiple thousands of $$$ to replace.
I hope I'm wrong and these LCDs just keep getting cheaper & cheaper where a replacement is only a couple hundred $$ instead.

This is happening now with older EV cars. Batteries are no longer made/available and these cars are being "totaled".

 

[RadioFlyer]

I hope I'm wrong and these LCDs just keep getting cheaper & cheaper where a replacement is only a couple hundred $$ instead.

Given that BMW sells a tire pressure sensor that is profitable at $40 for $220 there is little reason to think that this may become the case for a BMW replacement!

 

[kbasa]

Another analogy is air bags in cars. The insurance companies write-off many cars not because the cost of the collision damage repair is uneconomical but rather the cost of replacing deployed air bags is.

When was the last time you heard about someone going through the windshield? Death rates in frontal collisions have dropped something like 60% since they were implemented.

Given the choice between writing off a car and either dying, having a TBI or facial disfigurement, I'm happy to let the car give its life to save mine.

True Story: When I was in high school in the 70s, two friends of mine were in a 60s Mustang and went off the road at a pretty low velocity, maybe 30 or 35, hit a tree. Both went through the windshield and died. If that happened today, they'd probably live.

I absolutely don't care about destroying a car if it saves my life or the life of my loved ones in the process. Same as my riding gear. Do you agree?

 

[RadioFlyer]

When was the last time you heard about someone going through the windshield? Death rates in frontal collisions have dropped something like 60% since they were implemented.

Given the choice between writing off a car and either dying, having a TBI or facial disfigurement, I'm happy to let the car give its life to save mine.

True Story: When I was in high school in the 70s, two friends of mine were in a 60s Mustang and went off the road at a pretty low velocity, maybe 30 or 35, hit a tree. Both went through the windshield and died. If that happened today, they'd probably live.

I absolutely don't care about destroying a car if it saves my life or the life of my loved ones in the process. Same as my riding gear. Do you agree?

I wasn't disparaging airbags, they are an important safety feature. Rather I was illustrating that the need to replace a relatively small technological component can make or break the economic proposition for the entire vehicle.

It's one thing to have an air bag do its job but quite another to have an overly sophisticated piece of non-essential vulnerable tech fail and destroy the owner's investment.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

 

[bogdan]

I currently own a 2004 R1150R which I've modified to my liking. In most situations riding it is a joy. However, sometimes its' weight and seat height gets in the way. For example: I rode it up to Canada last September - all well on 4 lanes and curvy lake country 2 lanes. However, access roads to the cottage or chip truck were a chore. It wasn't so much the gravel. It seemed every time I needed to put my foot down there was a hole; not easy to balance the bike on tip toes or less. Looking around the current crop, I find the V7 Guzzi appealing. In many ways, it's like an updated version of my old 84 airhead - simple, light with a low seat. Maintenance seems straight forward. Trouble is...few dealers. I'm in St Louis - closest is in Kansas City. Anybody look at that bike ?

 

[kbasa]

I wasn't disparaging airbags, they are an important safety feature. Rather I was illustrating that the need to replace a relatively small technological component can make or break the economic proposition for the entire vehicle.

It's one thing to have an air bag do its job but quite another to have an overly sophisticated piece of non-essential vulnerable tech fail and destroy the owner's investment.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

Got it, thanks. (can we add the thumbs up smiley I see elsewhere to this forum? I should have added it 20 years ago, but bad on me.)

 

[cajunrider]

Looking around the current crop, I find the V7 Guzzi appealing. In many ways, it's like an updated version of my old 84 airhead - simple, light with a low seat. Maintenance seems straight forward. Trouble is...few dealers. I'm in St Louis - closest is in Kansas City. Anybody look at that bike ?

If my oilhead exploded tomorrow, the V7 would be on my short list.
I never rode one, but it looks like a nice bike to avoid all this high tech stuff.

 

[kbasa]

If my oilhead exploded tomorrow, the V7 would be on my short list.
I never rode one, but it looks like a nice bike to avoid all this high tech stuff.

I love them, but they're' about 7/8s scale when I sit on one.

That V100 tho...

 

[Stebe]

I love my '16 RT, but I have to admit I wish I'd never sold my '87 HD FXR Super Glide. Basically, I don't do anything to my RT. Electronic tech is beyond me. I've fixed a flat, added a couple of farkles like bar backs and lowered floorboards, but that's about it. On the HD I tackled most maintenance and upgrades in my garage. Rebuilt starter and front forks, brake calipers, added adjustable pushrods, stuff like that. Pretty much took it apart every winter. I sort of miss that simplicity. At age 67 I must admit that I've been considering a test ride on one of those Royal Enfield 650's.

Also, I carry maps. People are always saying "Google it", but you can't open up a 30 inch wide google map and get the big picture. That's part of the fun. Or, it is for me.

Still, the RT is freaking awesome, so, there's that.

 

[52184]

Also, I carry maps. People are always saying "Google it", but you can't open up a 30 inch wide google map and get the big picture. That's part of the fun. Or, it is for me.

You may be on to something there—that “big picture” may have effects beyond immediate use….
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-62877-0

Best,
DeVern

 

[brownie0486]

If my oilhead exploded tomorrow, the V7 would be on my short list.
I never rode one, but it looks like a nice bike to avoid all this high tech stuff.

I've been eyeballing their v85tt version for the last few years. Might trade the RS in for one.

79 moto guzzi dealers in the US, 146 BMW motorcycle dealers. That information isn't reassuring I can be on a trip and find a dealer anywhere near my location if there's a problem.

As an example, I'll be in Wy. this summer visiting from the Idaho border to SD's borders. There's NOT ONE bmw motor dealer in the state of Wy. It's also why I'm considering a Honda of some kind, there's 969 of these dealers in the US.

 

[Omega Man]

"Staying away from newer motorcycles"?..... Not necessarily.

My idea of "pure" motorcycling is riding a motorcycle that you can feel, hear and are not that concerned if it tips over in a parking lot. Seems like back in the early days of motorcycling, going for a ride was about the experience- of riding. The Easy Rider with it's customization and the way it was ridden is, in my opinion, part of "pure" motorcycling.
Chances are anyone that has been riding since childhood probably remembers how much fun it was to first ride a motorcycle..... even more fun if it was a motorcycle that was obtained cheap and brought back to running condition. Early riders quite possibly even remember that nothing on the early bikes made them "unridable". No creature comforts like "bar backs", RDL seats, repositioning footpegs or adding a radio and cupholder.
Forward through the years, as cars became more luxurious, so did bikes. This was partly part of riding evolution, evolution in riding styles and as age crept up, the need for more "bike". Tough to haul all that camping gear all those miles as now riding has turned into motorcycle touring- and camping.
As all this further evolved- through time, electronics became the norm be it in fuel injection or computer controls. Some of those electronic controls were part of governmental safety or emission standards that were mandated and started the complications and the need for "more" on the bikes. Even the evolution of tubeless tires on motorcycles was part of this evolution....
Anyway, selecting a (newer) bike that has perceived "more trouble" associated with it keeps getting harder especially if one wants to tour or haul enough gear to camp. This what some of the newer players in the import motorcycle arena may be realizing and targeting- more simple motorcycles that are certainly cheaper initially but I'm pretty sure won't have the long-term support that larger brands have.
Anyone want to ride their first...or second bike a thousand miles to an event?
OM