'82 R65LS Electrical Diagnosis Q

[kentuvman]

So, I thought I'd solved the problem causing Tina, my Red R65LS to die - I figured the problem was failure of the Hall Sensor in the bean can and ordered this part on Ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HALL-PICK-U...101S-HKZ121-/121173275830?hash=item1c367d74b6

This was my 2nd rebuild so I do have a spare can - the results were good - bike started easier and took some nice rides w/out incident.

But this season, the Tina has failed me twice. First time she started backfiring and symptomatic of an electrical problem - motor backfired, lost power and died, I started her up and rode her to work - then she wouldn't start so after disabling battery, removed front shield and thought perhaps the connection from bean can to where it plugs in was not secure enough but it was - bike started up and I've been riding her off and on w/out incident.

Today I went for a ride with a friend and she was running fantastic - after about 25 miles she started acting up again - took off the shield again and everything looked okay - started her up and rode another 3 miles and same thing . . . I'd turn on the ignition and the tach needle started moving on it's own w/out engine running which to me points to the Hall sensor - my friend got his truck and Tina made it home on 4 wheels.

Now I'm seriously trying to get to the bottom of this - I pulled tank and removed the heat sink unit - it seems to be the companion to the bean can, is that right? It has heat sink paste and everything looks good - I've gone through the wires & connections and believe connections are all good. I know it's electrical - bike runs awesome and plug colors are perfect.

Obviously something is wrong here - maybe time to buy the Motorrad kit? But before I spend the money wondering what else to check? I did test the coil, which was replaced (it's not the gray crack-0-matic). I pulled a plug, one at a time, switched on the ignition and moved the kill switch on and off and there is a spark on both so thinking coil is not the culprit.

Frustrating . . . thought I had this handled but I thought wrong.

Could it be that the component that's attaches to the heat sink unit needs replacing? Here's a link to one for sale on Ebay that's new Do these fail? I'm almost certain the bean can is golden.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-R80-R10...7-8-/251903082294?hash=item3aa697ff36&vxp=mtr

Mine's a Telefunken - looks to be OEM

What else should I be looking at? Maybe another bike?

 

[donbmw]

I just replaced the whole ignition system with the Alpha system on my 82 R65. Made sure it wasn't a kill switch. Wasn't getting anything at the plugs. Replaced coil and wires also.

Don

 

[guenner]

The extra unit you are talking about is the ignition control unit (ICU). It gets the low voltage signal from the 'can' and cuts off/turns on the 12V to the coil. The ICU also shuts off the 12V to the coil if it hasn't received a signal from the 'can' within ~3 seconds. This prevents over heating the coil while ignition on an engine not running.

If the tacho is connected through the auxiliary connector (typically) it is connected to the output of the ICU. With the tacho 'shivering' could be a faulty ICU. Btw. this IC was made by Telefunken and is the same used in most VW beetles. Check on ebay or for $40 from euromotoelectrics.com - part number 12142325284.

But it could still be a fault in the 'can'. The only way to find out for sure which one is failing is by connecting an oscilloscope to the wire between the 'can' and the ignition unit.

In the most luckiest case it might be a problem with the wire running from the ICU to the coil - cracked, loose.

/Guenther

 

[kentuvman]

The extra unit you are talking about is the ignition control unit (ICU). It gets the low voltage signal from the 'can' and cuts off/turns on the 12V to the coil. The ICU also shuts off the 12V to the coil if it hasn't received a signal from the 'can' within ~3 seconds. This prevents over heating the coil while ignition on an engine not running.

If the tacho is connected through the auxiliary connector (typically) it is connected to the output of the ICU. With the tacho 'shivering' could be a faulty ICU. Btw. this IC was made by Telefunken and is the same used in most VW beetles. Check on ebay or for $40 from euromotoelectrics.com - part number 12142325284.

But it could still be a fault in the 'can'. The only way to find out for sure which one is failing is by connecting an oscilloscope to the wire between the 'can' and the ignition unit.

In the most luckiest case it might be a problem with the wire running from the ICU to the coil - cracked, loose.

/Guenther

Right on - Guenther - at this point replacing ICU makes the most sense - will report results.

KT

 

[kentuvman]

Could it be?

Seeking knowledge about the ICM I found this on Mr. Anton Lagardier's website:

"Around 1991 the black coil (BMW 12 13 1 244 426, Bosch 0 221 500 203) was introduced. This coil has a 0.5~0.6 Ohm primary resistance. The ICM was simultaneously upgraded so that it cut off coil power after 1.2 seconds of inactivity, to prevent overheating damage to the coil, and presumably was rated to handle the higher current draw of the new coil. These ICMs have turquoise lettering (shown here) rather than white or pink. BMW recommended against using the new coil with an older ICM lacking the time cut-off."

Maybe I can put the puzzle together based on above - my R65LS "Tina" was a wreck when I bought her - a major project - one of the replacement items was the grey "crack-o-matic" coil with the newer black coil referenced above . . . unaware that BMW recommended using a newer coil with an older ICM, suggests I compromised my ICM and hopefully not my coil. I guess the proof in the pudding will occur when I replace the new ICM from Euromotoelectrics.

Stay tuned

 

[kentuvman]

She's all together now - well maybe . . .

So, thinking I've identified the culprit causing my R65LS to sputter and quit, I sure hope my thought process is accurate but I've got my doubts.

I ordered and received in 2 days a new and improved Ignition Control Unit from Euro Motoelectric - great service!.

The heat sink paste that came with the new unit is white and looks like brylcream or crest toothpaste. I generously applied it on both surfaces and installed the new unit - Yay!!!

Now I have to wonder was the existing ICU good or faulty? - one thing I'd noticed is there was some "stuff" between both surfaces on the OEM that resembled vaseline.

Did I do an accurate RX or didn't I? Maybe the upgraded Bosch Black Coil fried my ICU as Guenther suggested and as Anton writes about on his website. I'm so darn sure the bean can isn't the culprit because I know I did such a great job replacing it with a new hall sensor. Wondering if the original bean can was good all along (my spare can that I also rebuilt) and the ICU was the fault in the system the whole time.

I guess I'll have to find out - after getting stuck a couple of times I'm a little gun-shy of riding too far without a spotter. So, she's all put back together - perhaps tomorrow if it's warm enough I'll summon up the nerve to climb aboard and take a short ride and see how she behaves. I'll also bring my spare bean can too.

Contrast this bike with my R60/5 with points and a condenser, I think this bike is a lot more bullet proof and dependable that the electronic ignition.

We'll see . . . and I'll report my findings. Very determined to figure this out! That's what the hunt is all about, right?

 

[kentuvman]

She's running great - so far

New ICU from Euromotoelectric installed!

Went for @ 10 miles ride - not enough to know for sure if problem solved but lots of good voltage and bike feels very strong.

Will report back once I take a substantially longer ride.

 

[xguedox]

Any Luck

Hi kentuvman. I just bought an 84 R65 and it seems to be doing the same thing. After it heats up, it sputters out and dies. But, starts right back up again after about 20 mins of cooling off. The previous owner of my bike had replaced the coil with the blue .7 Ohms coil from Euromoto as well as the euromoto ICM. However, it appears that my ICM is just attached to the bike with zip ties. Not sure exactly how else it would attach, as there doesnt appear to be any mounting bracket, but maybe thats the issue? Either way, just wanted to see if you had fixed your problem.

 

[20774]

Welcome to the forum! Hopefully Ken will drop in and give you his insights. But it puzzles me that you say the module is held to the bike with zip ties. I hope at least they are BMW zip ties!! Honestly, that doesn't seem right...it should be secured better than that.

You're symptoms sound like the classic problem with the heat sink paste that is supposed to be renewed at regular intervals. This helps pull heat away from the module. The fact that it gives problems with hot and works better after cooling down seems to suggest this is the problem.

 

[MonoRT]

If you are running a new .7 ohm coil, you should also be using a new style IM where the IM is permamently rivetted to the heat sink (no more heat transfer paste upkeep) The lower primary coil resistance and can make the old IM run too hot. I don't know if a bracket helps with the cooling of the big heat sink, but you do want to be sure it gets airflow and does not flex the wires to an early demise.

 

[kentuvman]

Hi kentuvman. I just bought an 84 R65 and it seems to be doing the same thing. After it heats up, it sputters out and dies. But, starts right back up again after about 20 mins of cooling off. The previous owner of my bike had replaced the coil with the blue .7 Ohms coil from Euromoto as well as the euromoto ICM. However, it appears that my ICM is just attached to the bike with zip ties. Not sure exactly how else it would attach, as there doesnt appear to be any mounting bracket, but maybe thats the issue? Either way, just wanted to see if you had fixed your problem.

I purchased the replacement ICU from Euro Motoelectrics > http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/Ignition-Module-BMW-R-Airhead-12-14-2-325-284-p/ignmod-r284.htm

The OEM ICU was mounted on the frame to a heat sink and the part above was plug and play - it seemed like the existing paste on the OEM ICU was vaseline but not sure - the new part from Euro came with heat sink paste, which I applied.

So far, the bike has been reliable - in the process of installing a "stock" exhaust system this morning, replacing the noisy and leaky Luftmeister - once I have new exhaust installed will take a longer ride - hoping to cover several hundred miles just for the peace of mind factor.

What was difficult for me was diagnosing what was causing the bike to conk out, like you're describing. I first focused on the bean can and now have torn 2 apart and replaced the Hall sensor - even though the new Hall sensor did not completely solve the problem, after installed, starting the bike much easier.

Took me awhile to connect the dots that the Bean Can and ICU work hand in hand. Now with the new ICU the bike seems to just have more electrical spirit - sounds strange but that's how I'd describe it.

Still not sure if I've figured things out but this is where I am today.

Not a professional wrencher by any means but am pretty determined to figure things out! I do agree with a previous poster, that your ICU needs to be mounted to a heat sink as the ICU as apparently, the ICU's throw off heat and need the heat sink to cool them to prevent them from overheating and failing. My 2c