1150GS - The 50K Mile Heartbreak

[pglaves]

My 94 RS has "only" half the miles of the 350k some miles that Voni Glaves has on her 94 RS. Yet even at 163k I feel NO impending doom with my bike. I'll do some clutch spline maintenance this winter to see how it is holding up. But right now I expect no surprises from my rock-reliable ol' 94 RS.

I certainly don't feel doom with Voni's bike. I am spending money on it as we speak. Since it has never had rings (at 358K) it is getting some. I just ordered a couple of hundred $$ of bits and pieces, gaskets, seals, etc. and have a transmission going off to Tom Cutter for refreshing.

Doom. Not a bit. But the life of some parts is finite.

 

[harryt11]

Since we are talking about 94 RS'es, has anyone replaced the front engine seal? As I look at the parts diagram I see no gasket between the alternator support and engine case so I assume my seep on the fron is coming from the seal on the engine case. I plan to take my RS down this winter and refresh a lot of things.

One of the main things I plan on is a thourough inspection and cleaning of the wiring harness and ensuing all the connections are clean and tight. Any other things I should replace on a 160K bike?

 

[ANDYVH]

Check the front Telelever ball joints, top and bottom. I replaced both on my 94 RS.

Throttle body condition/play at the butterfly shafts. Bing makes a nice rebuild kit for both TBs at about $175.

The front disc rotor "buttons" should be checked/replaced (BMW says at 50k) at the least at 100k. I replaced mine at 105k.

Front brake rotors should be checked for minimum thickness, as mine are at 4mm and due for replacment.

The alternator brushes had more than half their life left at 130k, but the nose bearing on my alternator was starting to rumble, so I rebuilt the alternator and replaced the belt. Keep an extra belt handy.

Rear Paralever swing arm bearings are certainly shot by now if they are original. I replaced mine with swing arm bushings from Rubber Chicken Racing.

Original (cheapo) OEM front brake lines are worth replacing with Spiegler or Galfer teflon lined stainless steel hoses. OEM rubber brake hoses are not the best replacement option.

By now, for certain, the fuel filter should have been replaced, probably twice. I would also run some of the new BMW-Techron fuel cleaner through it. Excellant product, FAR better than any Seafoam, Berryman's, Lucas, Redline, I would never bother with any of those brands.

Monitor the rear drive hub fluid and seal, beyond that, ride it, regularly, always! Best thing you can do for any Oilhead is ride it frequently. High miles are almost better than really low miles in my opinion.

 

[harryt11]

I've done a lot of those items already!

The telelever ball joints are a good suggestion as is the alternator rebuild. I rebuilt the TB's at around 100K but noticed the other day I was starting to get the clicking on the right side again so I guess I'll do those also. I've also just replaced the swingarm bearings with BMW and the rear with the RCR bushings.

Spiegler lines and new rotors front and back at around 100K also.

Thanks for the post, how difficult was the alternator rebuild.

 

[robertsutton]

clutch splines

looking at the splines in your clutch plate, i would think that there is an alignment problem between your crankshaft and transmission. This was also an earlier K bike problem. This is something almost impossible to diagnose. having seen this on large industrial motor/generator sets the coupling didn't last. But at least on them you could check all phase of the alignments with dial indicators. I would look at your transmission housing to make sure no one put gasket compound on one side and not the other. When you put it together make sure it is torqued evenly. good luck

Bob. R100R, K1100Rs, R1150gs

If you don't care where you are going, you can't get lost.

 

[bikerfish1100]

looking at the splines in your clutch plate, i would think that there is an alignment problem between your crankshaft and transmission. This was also an earlier K bike problem. This is something almost impossible to diagnose. having seen this on large industrial motor/generator sets the coupling didn't last. But at least on them you could check all phase of the alignments with dial indicators. I would look at your transmission housing to make sure no one put gasket compound on one side and not the other. When you put it together make sure it is torqued evenly. good luck

Bob. R100R, K1100Rs, R1150gs

If you don't care where you are going, you can't get lost.

there were some threads on pelicanparts.com (tech forums/bmw/r1100S) that showed how to set up dial indicators to determine alignment accuracy, as well as how to repair (no, it's not especailly easy, but if you're engine/trans is out of alignment, you will eat input splines at a rate not much slower than tires).

 

[JimMoore]

I'm still convinced you either get a good one, or you get a bad one. A bad one is gonna fail between 30 and 50K (although 50K is on the high side). A good one will go a long, long time, lube or no lube. FC, your splines were doomed from mile 1. If you had pulled it apart to lube it at 40K you would have seen the same damage, just slightly less.

As a note, Anton suggests replacing everything (flywheel, spring , pressure plate, etc.) instead of just the input shaft and clutch hub.

As another note, here's a relatively simple way to check the health of your splines. It was originally posted by Stan Walker on the RT board. Pull your starter. Pull in your clutch and tie it to the handlebar. Looking in the starter hole you can see the edge of the clutch disc and the input shaft. Use a flat head screwdriver to rotate the clutch disc back and forth. The input shaft should rotate in concert. If your splines are worn you will be able to rotate the disk several degrees before the spline starts to move. I had about 3/8 of an inch of play (at 38K miles) and my splines looked about like the OP's when I pulled it apart.

 

[bikerfish1100]

I'm still convinced you either get a good one, or you get a bad one. A bad one is gonna fail between 30 and 50K (although 50K is on the high side). A good one will go a long, long time, lube or no lube. .

i think you are wrong in that Jim.
After reading literally hundreds of these accounts of spline failure, there appear to be 2 distinct patterns of failure.
1st is an early failure at 25-40K miles, followed by repeated failures in even shorter timefranes than the first one. This is the misaligned trans/engine failure. It can only be corrected by measuring and correcting the misalignment, or replacing the transmision entirely, and hoping that the new one lines up correctly with the engine.
2nd is the lube related failure. This can show up at anywhere from 50-100K miles if splines are not properly lubed at the 40K (or thereabouts) interval recommended by Paul G and others.
My R11S lost its splines at 71K, very close to the end of my riding season. I was intending to do a lube that winter, but the bike had other thoughts about it.

 

[JimMoore]

2nd is the lube related failure. This can show up at anywhere from 50-100K miles if splines are not properly lubed at the 40K (or thereabouts) interval recommended by Paul G and others.
My R11S lost its splines at 71K, very close to the end of my riding season. I was intending to do a lube that winter, but the bike had other thoughts about it.

Could be, I guess. I tend to think yours was simply "less mis-aligned" than the guy who just had his fail at 15K on the ibmwr list. (Btw, 15K! Ouch!).

That being said, I sure-as-hell lubed mine when I put it back together. Fingers crossed now. I'm gonna pull the starter and check it at 24K miles.

 

[roger 04 rt]

Range of Movement

The other day when I had my starter out to lubricate it, I looked at the transmission spline with a mirror and light. It was not easy to see much but I had three observations:

--the spline looked dry

--it didn't seem worn (yet)

--operating the clutch didn't move the clutch plate a perceptible amount

So I guess the grease isn't to lubricate lateral movement on the splined shaft but rather to lubricate the outward radial movement of the splined teeth as they contact each other. Is this the right way to think about it?

When I had the starter out I lightly lubricated the teeth of the pinion gear. What I didn't do was lubricate the teeth on the flywheel. The bike is still pretty open, should I go back and do that?

As a temporary measure, what about a tiny amount of chain lube directed to the spline? Would it be effective? Would it just get thrown out onto the clutch plate?

 

[JimMoore]

--the spline looked dry

--it didn't seem worn (yet)

The worn part would be under the clutch hub. You won't be able to see it. With the clutch pulled in, try rotating the clutch disc. See if the input shaft moves at the same time.

 

[roger 04 rt]

The worn part would be under the clutch hub. You won't be able to see it. With the clutch pulled in, try rotating the clutch disc. See if the input shaft moves at the same time.

Got it. I will check for amount of play.

 

[rxcrider]

--the spline looked dry ?

Probably time to pull the gearbox and lube the spline

--it didn't seem worn (yet)

As already stated, put the gear box in 1st. Then pull the clutch lever and try to rotate the clutch / friction disk without turning the input shaft. Use a flash light to keep an eye on the shaft. There will be very little play if the splines are good. Rotational / angular backlash is what you are looking for. Here's my thread on this issue from earlier this year. http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?t=55462

--operating the clutch didn't move the clutch plate a perceptible amount

It won't.

So I guess the grease isn't to lubricate lateral movement on the splined shaft but rather to lubricate the outward radial movement of the splined teeth as they contact each other. Is this the right way to think about it?

Mostly; a minute amount of axial movement will occur in releasing the clutch disk from the clutch cover as the pressure plate moves slightly forward. The primary function of the grease is to cushion the impacts between the spline teeth and prevent fretting (wear).

What I didn't do was lubricate the teeth on the flywheel. The bike is still pretty open, should I go back and do that?

I've never seen the ring gear on any flywheel require lubrication, so my guess is no. With no sustained load or contact, I don't think it should be an issue. If someone has experience to contradict this, I'm all ears.

As a temporary measure, what about a tiny amount of chain lube directed to the spline? Would it be effective? Would it just get thrown out onto the clutch plate?

I suspect it would do more harm than good. You run a good chance of contaminating the friction surface(s) and you probably couldn't get much penetration into the splines.

Pulling the gear box to properly lube the splines provides hours of quality time for you and your bike.

 

[roger 04 rt]

Probably time to pull the gearbox and lube the spline


... http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?t=55462 ...

Pulling the gear box to properly lube the splines provides hours of quality time for you and your bike.

Thanks for the comments and answers, very helpful. From searching, I'd seen your thread earlier. Now that I've had my bike apart, I understand your photos much better than my first look.

I'm looking forward to the take apart time, probably in the dead of winter.