1150GS - The 50K Mile Heartbreak

[FatChance]

I have a '00 1150GS with 49K miles that has been a great bike since I got it in 2004 with 5900 miles. I do regular service on it, including changing the transmission oil (80-90 synthetic) and the final drive (80-90 dino) with every oil/filter change. There have been no bad symptoms other than some recent oil seepage and a little play in the FD consistent with worn pivot bearings. I mostly use the GS for multi-day to multi-week rides through the Rockies (FatWife has her own '01 1150GS). I'm old and ride it fast, but nothing rough at all. I've got a DR650 for off road riding.

Since winter is here, I decided to do a full, in-depth maintenance because I plan on keeping this bike forever. I planned on fixing the oil seep, lube the clutch splines, service the swing arm bearings, put in some Rubber Chicken pivot bushings and renew the FD bearings and seal over the winter. Normal 50K mile stuff. In the last 1000-1500 miles, the oil seepage has gotten worse, but it is nothing I would call a leak (no drips). I figured the transmission input shaft and FD seals were shot. The clutch has been working normally. Here is the seepage on the right bottom of the engine:

Here is the FD showing a seeping seal. The FD lube always comes out clean and there is no play with the rear brake activated, so my plan is to just go ahead and replace the bearings and seal, maybe check the pinion seal. I'll also put in some Rubber Chicken Racing pivot bushings to replace the worn pivot bearings. It certainly is time to do this service.

With the starter removed, I could confirm that the clutch and rear of the engine were dry, so the engine rear main seal was fine and the problem was the transmission input shaft seal. Just as suspected and an easy fix.

The transmission input shaft seal is obviously shot:

Now for the BAD news. The input shaft spines are in bad shape:

The clutch disk splines are even worse!

Looks like Basin Motorcycle Works will be making some big bucks rebuilding my transmission (i.e. new input shaft and seals)! If only a leaking transmission seal could have kept the input splines lubed! Over many decades, I've always had the best seal performance using dino oil instead of synthetic. I wonder if using synthetic in the transmission might have been a contributing factor in the seal failure? I may never know, but I'm considering going back to dino.

I reckon those clutch splines only had another thousand miles or so before a total failure. So, I guess clean living and pure thoughts kept me lucky enough that the FD or the clutch didn't totally fail while off in some far distant place. At least the bike is safe on the lift in my shop with the first snow of November on the ground...

Still, not what I wanted to find. It is going to be a long, cold, expensive winter.

 

[Walking Eagle]

Ouch!

THANKS for the great pictures. You are very lucky to have those great people at Basin nearby. First-class shop.

Good luck with the winter project.

Walking Eagle

 

[spanky]

been there, done that

I went through this last February and paid $1700 for a new input shaft install, clutch plate, and pivot bearings. This was on a '02 RT with 46K miles and I've been running synthetics since 22K miles.

 

[bikerfish1100]

I went through this last February and paid $1700 for a new input shaft install, clutch plate, and pivot bearings. This was on a '02 RT with 46K miles and I've been running synthetics since 22K miles.

fwiw- running synth, or any other oil variant (weight, grade, etc) has nothing whatsoever to do with input shaft/clutch disc wear, nor with pivot bearing wear.

 

[FatChance]

fwiw- running synth, or any other oil variant (weight, grade, etc) has nothing whatsoever to do with input shaft/clutch disc wear, nor with pivot bearing wear.

FWIW, I brought up dino/synthetic in my original post only in reference as a possible contributor to the seal failure. As you state, the seal or the oil have nothing to do with the spline or pivot bearing failure.

 

[FatChance]

Just for some thought: Earlier today I was reading the new Rider magazine that came in the mail yesterday. In it in Chris' Corner Tech Q&A when asked about this very issue he says clutch spline failure is caused by "wheelies or transmission shaft misalignment". Period.

He states, if you replace it yourself, "the only thing the service manual probably won't tell you is to work the clutch several times before tightening the transmission - preferably with the engine running - so all the rotating stuff and the transmission main shaft can align themselves. There is enough play in the mounting bolts and flange that some misalignment is possible if you just bolt it all together" and "If you're taking to a shop, they probably already know this technique".

I am surprised that he seems so definitive and yet this is the first time I have ever heard of this "technique". My mind has been thinking about getting the engine running where it would be still possible to tighten all the transmission bolts afterwards or if I could just spin the crankshaft from the front with an air impact wrench with the spark plugs removed to simulate the motor spinning near idle speed. Or, maybe he is just blowing smoke up our skirts.

Could this really be the problem instead of excessive clutch housing runout? Sounds kinda far fetched considering the alignment pins between the engine and transmission. But, maybe it is true even though I have never heard of it on the internet...

 

[akbeemer]

I'm amazed you are still around after referring to any woman as "Fat Wife".

 

[FatChance]

I went through this last February and paid $1700 for a new input shaft install, clutch plate, and pivot bearings. This was on a '02 RT with 46K miles and I've been running synthetics since 22K miles.

Did you do this or just drip it off at a shop? I am planning on paying a local shop to install the input shaft into the transmission, I will do all the rest of the labor myself so hopefully my total cost will be a lot less...

 

[FatChance]

I'm amazed you are still around after referring to any woman as "Fat Wife".

Wimp!

I guess you would have to have met her to understand the irony and humor in that alias. She used to be a professional volleyball player and does not suffer from a lack of self-confidence and deservedly so.

 

[PGlaves]

When I read the thread title I said to myself, "splines". This looks like a good thread for the folks who have told you all that I'm nuts when I say clean and lube splines at 40,000 miles or sooner if you wish. The cousin's brother in law stories of 100,000s of thousand of miles with no spline lube.

We have one here at 55,000 and one mentioned at 46,000 until destruction. I happen to have one sitting on my lift that looks like the OP photograph except that the inside of its clutch hub was basically smooth and I can spin the disk on the shaft and when I let go it keeps turning a little bit. It was right at 50K miles too.

ADDED: The photo of the input shaft posted in the OP clearly looks to me like an angular misalignment. There is pronounced wear at the middle of the splines and very little wear at the front end of the contact area.On that bike I would certainly check that the face of the clutch housing is perpendicular to the crankshaft.

 

[ANDYVH]

This winter (here in Green Bay), one of my projects is to again pull the tranny back and inspect/lube the tranny input splines/clutch splines. I installed a new clutch assembly at about 120K and its due for a re-lube. My RS has always shifted easily (for a 94 Oilhead), which I attribute to proper clutch spline lube and proper clutch adjustment.

The bike has 163K on it, and the tranny has just over 90K on it. The tranny was replaced under warranty by BMW with a new 96 spec tranny at 68,000 miles.

I have always used synthetic lube in the tranny, and I have no reason or evidence to suggest the syn-lube has any negative effect on the seals.

 

[FatChance]

When I read the thread title I said to myself, "splines". This looks like a good thread for the folks who have told you all that I'm nuts when I say clean and lube splines at 40,000 miles or sooner if you wish.

If nothing else, at least I can be a bad example...

We have one here at 55,000 and one mentioned at 46,000 until destruction. I happen to have one sitting on my lift that looks like the OP photograph except that the inside of its clutch hub was basically smooth and I can spin the disk on the shaft and when I let go it keeps turning a little bit. It was right at 50K miles too.

What do you think about Anton's feeling that this problem is related to excessive runout of the clutch housing and that replacing all the clutch components will fix the root cause?

 

[PGlaves]

I'll answer a couple of posts. The theory about misalignment in general calling for fiddling with things before tightening the clutch bolts and transmission bolts used to be true but it is old tech. Oilhead transmissions use two sturdy alignment dowel pins that are snug in the engine and snug in the transmission. You can fiddle all day but if the dowels are in the holes you won't move anything.

There have been some cases of misalignment, verified by qualified machinists, due to manufacturing error or tolerances - take your pick. But these don't account for all of the cases. It is a sad fact that splines wear if not properly cleaned and lubricated.

Anton has aptly described one cause of rapid wear. I call it wobble. It can be introduced by ill fitting clutch parts, ham handed assembly, or an out of tolerance clutch housing (flywheel). It is fairly easy to check with a runout dial gauge or accurate use of a straightedge and depth gauge.

But I don't agree that if everything is perfect splines don't wear and don't need lubrication.

 

[spanky]

Did you do this or just drip it off at a shop? I am planning on paying a local shop to install the input shaft into the transmission, I will do all the rest of the labor myself so hopefully my total cost will be a lot less...

It all started with me downloading a lot of "how to" articles for doing my own RT spline lube. I studied the various articles over the intervening winter months between late 2010 and early 2011 and then decided to let someone else do it. I located an independent shop in Denver and took it there. He called me later that day and informed me I'd waited too long to have the splines lubed.

A lot more innernet diggin' and research yielded a few tidbits; the all new 2002 R1150RT model w/6 speed tranny had some bad production standards pertaining to the method the factory used to assemble the bike. In addition to that they used a bad spec for the lube - not enough plus it dried out far too soon. My RT was built in March of 2002 thus making it a mid production bike. Overall, the '02 model year is generally regarded as having a much higher than normal input shaft failure rate due to the aforementioned production methods.

It's important to note here that I maintain my bikes by the book and followed the advice of my local dealer. For the record I no longer patronize my local dealer.

If you pull the tranny and have the local shop do it I suspect you'll save $500-$700.

 

[Walking Eagle]

Grease

My wish would be that all who say, "use EXACTLY what the factory says to use" would read Spanky's post. . .and would also understand that even BMW engineers don't always get it right. Makes me wonder if this was pure Moly that the factory used? Sorry. . .almost started another grease thread, and the world does NOT need another one.

I agree that this potential problem with this production run of RT's would have been a good "catch" for the dealer that Spanky mentions. . .But, a clutch-spline lube costs almost $1,000 if the dealer does it, and there's no way to tell what the spline looks like until you put the tail in the air, and that is where the money gets spent. . .so I'm not sure how much a dealer will "push" doing this service if the bike shows no symptoms.

Un-lubed (un-loved?) splines are a silent killer. . .maybe few or NO symptoms until it's too, too late (?). Time or money: If you've got a job (or enough dough), and no time to do this, a 40,000 mile bike is -- to use the phrase again -- a ticking bomb, so pay somebody to do it, and -- I'D ASK WHAT GREASE THEY INTEND TO USE. My method, given that I have more time than money, was to spend many hours reading up on how to do it, and I asked a lot of questions on this forum.

Paul G. is sometimes a voice crying in the wilderness about this stuff, he's been doing it for 15 years or so, and the warning has been very specific: If you've got a 40k virgin Oilhead, . . . tick, tick, tick. How many more tragic stories must be writ before that voice is heard???

Walking Eagle

 

[JDOCKERY132445]

Oops

I am doomed. Mine has 130,000 miles on it.

Oh well, I am leaving for Chapel Hill, Winston Salem, Mt. Airy, Boone, Asheville, Atlanta, Columbia, Florence; perhaps I will take a look on Tuesday...or not.

Hey, I will be close to Paul, maybe I will give him a call.

 

[KemoSabe]

I'm guessing that I'm riding a time bomb of problems!

 

[spanky]

.......I agree that this potential problem with this production run of RT's would have been a good "catch" for the dealer that Spanky mentions. . .But, a clutch-spline lube costs almost $1,000 if the dealer does it, and there's no way to tell what the spline looks like until you put the tail in the air, and that is where the money gets spent. . .so I'm not sure how much a dealer will "push" doing this service if the bike shows no symptoms.

For the record, the independent shop that did the work had a labor rate of about 1/3 less then the front range CO BMW dealers. Had I taken my RT to one of them I'd have paid somewhere between $700 and $1000 more.

Oh, and to add insult to injury I was told that my rear shock was leaking. I'd already planned and budgeted for aftermarket replacement shocks but those monies went to pay for the input shaft, clutch plate, and pivot bearings. Since I was planning a very long cross-country trip last August I bit the bullet and got the new shocks anyway and installed them myself. So, that amounted to a cool $3K for a nine year old bike. Yea, I'm pretty much well sunk into this bike but it does so many things so well and it's soooo pretty.

 

[roger 04 rt]

Sorry to hear about your problems but this is a very timely thread relative to the questions in my "intro" thread. I'm getting motivated to have a look at mine sooner rather than later.

 

[ANDYVH]

My 94 RS has "only" half the miles of the 350k some miles that Voni Glaves has on her 94 RS. Yet even at 163k I feel NO impending doom with my bike. I'll do some clutch spline maintenance this winter to see how it is holding up. But right now I expect no surprises from my rock-reliable ol' 94 RS.