Motorcyclists Are Dangerous

bmwdean · Aug 26, 2016

There is a radio that came on my 2015 R1200RT. I never use it when riding. I wouldn't use it unless the bike was stopped, turned off, and I was dismounted. That is my personal preference.

There is a lot of talk on this forum about riding while using radios, music players, telephones, etc.

Below is a letter that appeared in Motorcycle Consumer News. It encapsulates my feelings about using electronic devices while riding motorcycles. I think it discusses something all motorcyclists should think about with respect to their riding activities.

Cal · Aug 26, 2016

Agree.

ncpbmw1953 · Aug 26, 2016

bmwdean said:

Though parts I agree with I don't buy this statement as anything but another unsubstantiated opinion and a most likely a false one at that, 'a rider distracted by X is as dangerous as a driver texting on a cell phone'. I don't think so! Perhaps you're thinking, the rider was distracted, but then the comment is in essence a tautology so doesn't say anything about reality.

Music engages a different part of your brain than does texting, talking, or even listening to speech. I am hyperaware as a rider, OCD so, strive for absolute perfection in defensive riding practices, and yet listen to music quite regularly. OTOH, the last speeding ticket I got, which was the 3rd of 3 speeding tickets over 45y of driving cars, happened as I was intently listening on NPR to a podcast of interest and drove thru a true speed trap at 15mph over the posted speed and got nailed in my car. I am generally less aware as a car driver than as a motorcycle rider. I won't listen to speech, nor answer phones, etc while riding motorcycles.

The bulk of most Dangerous Motorcyclists are almost always squids and aging squids in metropolitan areas. The SF Bay Area gets on average about 8 motorcycle crashes daily which is phenomenal when you think about it. Sport bike and other riders who ride as if they are invincible, lane splitting on the freeway at 20-50mph over ambient traffic, etc etc ad nauseum. Go and google 'Motorcycle Road Rage Compilations'. You will find a recurring theme of younger riders who are incensed that someone didn't see them coming (read, racing towards them) in an intersection, and sometimes failing to take note of them during a lane merge. Incensed to the point of tracking the cager down to teach them a lesson! Then there are those who assume it's all good to jump in front of a line of cars no matter what the circumstance. I do when it seems respectful to do so. I like to be an ambassador for respectful motorcycling. And those who decide to pass on double yellow lines barely making it back into their lane around a string of cars. Guess what, it's not just you a_hole! Others take on risk when for example you make the unsafe pass and fail to note the Great Dane rushing out right before you pull back in your line causing a big crash of more than just you! I thought of that because indeed that happened to me on a boulevard a Great Dane raced out from behind a parked car directly towards me while I was riding about 45mph.

Disrespecting the rest of traffic pisses others off royally myself included, and leaves a bad taste in certain motorist's mouths, leading to the kind of retaliatory lashing out by a_holes like the old guy in Texas who swerved into a young sports bike rider who was passing on a double yellow line, and caused him to crash.

These sorts of antics create dangerous motorcycling conditions for all, whereas the music I listen to, not so much.

Reading David Hough of late I can't help but see how it happens--as you age it finally starts really dawning on you just how dangerous motorcycling can be, especially for you the old person. I think that is so because we are aware the older we get, not only may reflexes and strength not be quite there, but if you crash, you will be more vulnerable to severe injury and bad outcomes--which comes with bone and muscle loss, impaired wound healing, and all of the other fun things to look forward to!

classicvw · Aug 26, 2016

That letter is one person's opinion. Period. We're all different. Maybe someone can't listen to music and ride safely, maybe others can. And I'm not one who thinks he can. But I recognize there are others who can do it perfectly safely.

patm · Aug 26, 2016

I don't know. Music tends to help me stay focused on the task at hand.
Since I don't have a radio on my bike, you should hear me sing in my helmet. :lol

stillwater0302 · Aug 26, 2016

Same. Music provides an underlying soundtrack that helps me focus. Just did a solo trip of four days and seven States on secondary roads, following the US side of Erie then the start of the Ohio River Valley in Pittsburgh, following the Ohio River down past Cinci.

Music was going the whole time on my Sena BT except for a 2 hour period one afternoon of a low battery. I was FAR more fatigued from that one evening and my mind would wander too much in the silence of the road. So, yeah. Music helps me focus.

I've taken a couple of calls after first getting the Sena but have since stopped... a conversation *does* distract me. I imagine intercom might do the same.

Still, different strokes and "whatever ya believe, ya might be wrong."

BMW Triumphant · Aug 26, 2016

Sorry, I like music and communicating with other riders.

I don't know the reason for the original post.

It is not going to change my liking of listening to an Irish Jig while riding some twisty road.

Without the radio, my 2015 RT has an info screen that is more distracting than my GPS or audio, at least until I am fully understanding of it.

I think I am there now, but it took at least 5000 km.

AKsuited · Aug 26, 2016

I feel that GPS assistance while riding is a good thing in that it allows you to make navigation decisions well in advance of "decision points," especially those oddball situations where you need to take a "left" exit. It's very helpful to know that and be advised which lane to be in well in advance to position yourself properly and not have to make any sudden moves that might be dangerous.

Harry

glenfiddich · Aug 27, 2016

Part of being situationally aware is knowing what you personally find distracting. I find music and phone calls distracting, so my personal decision is not to use either while riding. Ditto with the intercom, as my wife's screams of terror on mountain roads can be quite distracting. But the GPS is a great tool that allows me to keep my eyes on the road, especially when passing through towns and cities that have far more threats to my safety than rides in my very rural part of the country. I have it mounted high, so with just a brief glance I can see cross streets coming up long before they are visible to me, can verify that the curve ahead is not as sharp as the DOT nanny sign would have me believe, etc.

36654 · Aug 27, 2016

Music as background white noise is fine by me. Many of us here are old enough to remember the benefits of Muzak in those large cubical barns.

Now, where you have problems, in my opinion, is how do you deliver that white noise to the rider while simultaneously isolating the rider from the ambient (i.e., wind) noise. Based the British noise studies, rider sound power levels (SPL_dBA) exceed the "no damage" 85 dBA threshold level at 37mph. In addition, those measurements for the 37 to 75 mph speed range, indicated a 12 to 20 dbA rise, depending on helmet type and conditions. Since the lowest rise, 12 dbA, indicates an exponential velocity dependence of only 3.5 (dB ~ V^3.5), I would suggest those results are biased to the low side. The measured 20-dBA rise corresponds to a velocity dependence of V^5.3 which is similar to traditional noise models.

Now, assuming that the 20 dBa rise is the most reliable estimate and the best possible ear plugs, which have a noise reduction rating (NRR) of 26~30, are properly installed, the rider doesn't have a whole lot of "level" margin for music at high-way speeds.

So, be careful, that your music isn't damaging your hearing.

mohuck · Aug 27, 2016

You may want to consider spitting out that gum before walking as well then if music distracts you that much. :jester

pauls1150 · Aug 27, 2016

I sing to scare off the bugs and critters.

rtsteve · Aug 27, 2016

mohuck said:
You may want to consider spitting out that gum before walking as well then if music distracts you that much.

bmwdean · Aug 27, 2016

Looks like a stirred up a bit of a hornet's nest here. Just focus your attention on operating the motorcycle safely without distractions. Same for operating your car.

If you are traveling 70 mph, you will go 102 feet in just one second. At 80 mph you go 117 feet. What can happen to you by not focusing fully on the road in front of for just one second? Double that for two seconds. Normal perception-reaction time is only 1.5 seconds. Remember that braking distance is not linear. It takes much more than twice the distance to stop from twice the speed. Factor in to that your perception-reaction time used before you even start braking.

glenfiddich · Aug 27, 2016

mohuck said:
You may want to consider spitting out that gum before walking as well then if music distracts you that much.

Thank you for that wonderfully mature contribution to the topic.

desmoderek · Aug 27, 2016

I use all the mentioned gadgets, and I'm not sorry, or overtly distracted when I do.

People are entitled to their opinions, and there's undoubtedly some part of the truth in what the author says (maybe he should give up writing open letters and go back to singing for Foreigner, or whoever it was...), but there's also a huge difference in a number of rider's ability to deal with a variety of situations, whether they are self-imposed or not.
I'm happy to listen to music through a BT headset, and I have my GPS directions fed through too. I also have the ability to take and make phone calls through the GPS. I even asked my wife to make sure she calls me with a question instead of texting, and I always keep my cell phone on my person, never in a tank bag or on the bike.. I find the pings are just annoyances, and then you wonder what the text says, I find a wandering mind to be the real distraction.
I always practice defensive riding techniques, I always ride below my capabilities, and I'm continuously scanning the road and surrounding areas ahead. You can never eliminate every risk a motorcyclist faces, but you can mitigate those risks by being alert, in full control, and by being properly attired - ATGATT, if you like. Even when riding on deserted roads, there's always the deer, turkey, or roadkill to trick you into an unwanted incident.
On long and short rides alike I listen to music, I find it provides a comforting alternative to the wind noise, exhaust sound, or mechanical pings and belly rumbling. Sometimes I just like to listen to the bike, whichever one I'm riding, and get back in touch with the mechanicals while I listen for unknown noises or just enjoy the sound of a well refined high performance motor being put through it's paces.
I still speed, still enjoy scrapping pegs, and still push the limits at times, but increasingly more-so for my own pleasure than to show what I can do. It hasn't always been the case, and I've learned a few lessons and bent some metal in the process, but at 49, and with a 33 year riding career behind me, I appreciate all the conveniences that the modern motorcyclist has at his/her disposal, I do not consider them to be a distraction, or I would not entertain their use - it's my life, and I want to enjoy it for a good long time to come. As with many other things, it's about what it can offer you, and how you use it. Thanks for you input, but I beg to differ. Ride Safe.

alancoles · Aug 27, 2016

ncpbmw1953 said:
Though parts I agree with I don't buy this statement as anything but another unsubstantiated opinion and a most likely a false one at that, 'a rider distracted by X is as dangerous as a driver texting on a cell phone'. I don't think so!...

I'm with you regarding agreeing with some of the stated opinions, put I'd actually go farther in disneting on the piece you quoted. I'm not trying to bash the person who posted the article, but do disagree with the author of the article regarding the part you quoted. That doesn't mean I condone a laissez faire attitude towards safety or a lack of responsibility for not only one's self but also those we share the road with.

Not only do I disbelieve the assertion that talking on a phone while driving "is as dangerous as a driver texting on a cell phone" (bold for emphasis), I am quite certain that it is an absolute fabrication by someone wanting to make a point and believing that simply because they feel something is true than it must be true. Unfortunately, we run into this type of self-indulgent and completely wrong thinking all too often. I'd want to see actual, credible data on this before ever thinking something that certainly appears to be hogwash is correct.

Certainly from my perspective, there should be zero tolerance for texting while driving, riding, or walking across the street. Throw the idiots in jail and give them a hefty fine to boot. However, to compare the detrimental affect that texting has on one's ability to maintain situational awareness to the far less taxing and involving actions of talking (hands-free phone or one-on-one conversation with a passenger while driving a car) or listening (GPS on a bike or in a car) is absolutely ridiculous. Absolutely, riding a bike requires more concentration and ability than driving a car, but that doesn't mean that every rider is at their safety threshold just riding their bike and has no reserve capacity. Following the author's line of thinking would see us all reduced to the lowest common denominator all too quickly. Unfortunately, most all of us do think we're better riders, drivers, and lovers than we really are, so caution is better than brashness here. ;-)

glenfiddich said:
Part of being situationally aware is knowing what you personally find distracting. I find music and phone calls distracting, so my personal decision is not to use either while riding. Ditto with the intercom, as my wife's screams of terror on mountain roads can be quite distracting. But the GPS is a great tool that allows me to keep my eyes on the road, especially when passing through towns and cities that have far more threats to my safety than rides in my very rural part of the country. I have it mounted high, so with just a brief glance I can see cross streets coming up long before they are visible to me, can verify that the curve ahead is not as sharp as the DOT nanny sign would have me believe, etc.

Agree completely, everyone has a different level of concentration, delegation, awareness, etc., and I believe that it is everyone's responsibility to act responsibly, whatever that might be for each individual. Having said that, I'd perhaps add one caveat, that is, no matter what we feel we are personally capable of doing, that does not give us the right to break the law without also being willing to accept the consequences, and from my perspective, I think we should err on the side of caution and respect for those around us.

wjrich100 · Aug 27, 2016

ncpbmw1953 said:
Though parts I agree with I don't buy this statement as anything but another unsubstantiated opinion and a most likely a false one at that, 'a rider distracted by X is as dangerous as a driver texting on a cell phone'. I don't think so! Perhaps you're thinking, the rider was distracted, but then the comment is in essence a tautology so doesn't say anything about reality.

Music engages a different part of your brain than does texting, talking, or even listening to speech. I am hyperaware as a rider, OCD so, strive for absolute perfection in defensive riding practices, and yet listen to music quite regularly. OTOH, the last speeding ticket I got, which was the 3rd of 3 speeding tickets over 45y of driving cars, happened as I was intently listening on NPR to a podcast of interest and drove thru a true speed trap at 15mph over the posted speed and got nailed in my car. I am generally less aware as a car driver than as a motorcycle rider. I won't listen to speech, nor answer phones, etc while riding motorcycles.

The bulk of most Dangerous Motorcyclists are almost always squids and aging squids in metropolitan areas. The SF Bay Area gets on average about 8 motorcycle crashes daily which is phenomenal when you think about it. Sport bike and other riders who ride as if they are invincible, lane splitting on the freeway at 20-50mph over ambient traffic, etc etc ad nauseum. Go and google 'Motorcycle Road Rage Compilations'. You will find a recurring theme of younger riders who are incensed that someone didn't see them coming (read, racing towards them) in an intersection, and sometimes failing to take note of them during a lane merge. Incensed to the point of tracking the cager down to teach them a lesson! Then there are those who assume it's all good to jump in front of a line of cars no matter what the circumstance. I do when it seems respectful to do so. I like to be an ambassador for respectful motorcycling. And those who decide to pass on double yellow lines barely making it back into their lane around a string of cars. Guess what, it's not just you a_hole! Others take on risk when for example you make the unsafe pass and fail to note the Great Dane rushing out right before you pull back in your line causing a big crash of more than just you! I thought of that because indeed that happened to me on a boulevard a Great Dane raced out from behind a parked car directly towards me while I was riding about 45mph.

Disrespecting the rest of traffic pisses others off royally myself included, and leaves a bad taste in certain motorist's mouths, leading to the kind of retaliatory lashing out by a_holes like the old guy in Texas who swerved into a young sports bike rider who was passing on a double yellow line, and caused him to crash.

These sorts of antics create dangerous motorcycling conditions for all, whereas the music I listen to, not so much.

Reading David Hough of late I can't help but see how it happens--as you age it finally starts really dawning on you just how dangerous motorcycling can be, especially for you the old person. I think that is so because we are aware the older we get, not only may reflexes and strength not be quite there, but if you crash, you will be more vulnerable to severe injury and bad outcomes--which comes with bone and muscle loss, impaired wound healing, and all of the other fun things to look forward to!

What's a squid?

Omega Man · Aug 27, 2016

wjrich100 said:
What's a squid?

Usually a reference to someone on a sport-bike (crotch-rocket). May or may not be in "hooligan mode".
OM

henzilla · Aug 27, 2016

Probably moving this to Campfire shortly...not a specific Wethead topic :wave

As far as my opinon/experiences, listening to sounds, from music to road noise to bike noises can be a distraction depending on your personal threshold.
Now, trying to operate extra inputs in certain conditions should be a no brainer from both a safety and courteous sharing of the road.
Some folks don't ride in heavy traffic often and struggle when they do while others do it so often, it becomes second nature. I believe the same goes for pushing buttons, wonder wheels, and anything taking your eyes off mission #1...which is piloting your motorcycle. Some folks do not ride often, so maybe the fewer inputs,the better...but still depends on the individual.

Music has never interfered with most of my riding, even on bicycles..and if it does, I will shut it off. It breaks the monotony of open roads, but don't want to hear Radar Love or Sammy Hagar telling me about driving 55 while trying to negotiate some serious inner city mazes. I find my mind wandering more when droning along...scary things going on up there.
We travel on two bikes, so the leap of bike to bike comms thru the years has increased our rides enjoyment. Don't need to chat endlessly, but using sign language doesn't always get the message across. I am not a big phone chatter, so never an issue on the bike, but having GPS and H's voice asking if I missed the exit is invaluable...well, not so much on the exit issue when I am navigating :whistle

Our comms only get installed on trips...on local rides we just shake our fists at each other and laugh.

Riding, along with a long list of other activities are at times dangerous...but the
operator has some control how dangerous by using some common sense.

The stopping distances chart would be informative if they had the same folks listening to Adele in comparison to see if there is any time lag in reaction time

Motorcyclists Are Dangerous

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