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Some new helmet(less) injury stats
- Thread starter rmarkr
- Start date
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M
MARTYW
Guest
From the lively discussion on this subject, it sounds like there are 3 different arguments in support of mandatory helmet laws.
These are:
1. Riding without a helmet is significantly more dangerous to other road users than riding with a helmet.
2. Riding without a helmet creates significantly more hospitalization costs that are a burden to the public coffers and private health insurers than riding with a helmet.
3. Riding without a helmet creates a significantly greater risk to a riders own well being than riding with a helmet.
I think the best reason to make helmets mandatory would be if arguments 1 and 2 were true. I don't think argument 1 holds much water, but how about the second? Is there a step up in costs that make it so much more expensive for me the tax payer if you don't wear your helmet. There were some stats posted earlier that might indicate that. What do you think?
These are:
1. Riding without a helmet is significantly more dangerous to other road users than riding with a helmet.
2. Riding without a helmet creates significantly more hospitalization costs that are a burden to the public coffers and private health insurers than riding with a helmet.
3. Riding without a helmet creates a significantly greater risk to a riders own well being than riding with a helmet.
I think the best reason to make helmets mandatory would be if arguments 1 and 2 were true. I don't think argument 1 holds much water, but how about the second? Is there a step up in costs that make it so much more expensive for me the tax payer if you don't wear your helmet. There were some stats posted earlier that might indicate that. What do you think?
testinglogin
Hogaan!
I think they are afraid helmet laws will lead to a ban of motorcycles just like seat belt laws have led to a ban of automobiles... oh wait...
B
BUBBAZANETTI
Guest
I think they are afraid helmet laws will lead to a ban of motorcycles just like seat belt laws have led to a ban of automobiles... oh wait...
you can have my seat belt when you pry it from my cold dead....oh wait....
redclfco
New member
Calling Cabranes to the white telepone
I'm not willing to take that chance. The fact that I HAVE TO buckle up (which I do) in a car, yet the HD rider goes whipping by me helmetless on Minnesoata roads tells you the upside down world of legislation.
If this kind of dicotomy exists in the legislation passed in our states, then my trust that the governmnet will stop after just eating one chip is very, very low.
If you trust the govenment to make the right decision, then tell me how Scott's Oregon can pass a silly law that you can move someone's motorcycle out of a parking spot!
You are too trusting Bubba.
If you legislate one, you have to legislate them all. Each activity I have used as examples are inheritly risky, inheritly pose a risk to the public, and have been discussed in many, many public and government forums and in the reason for litigation in many "slip and fall"type detainers. Where o where is John (Jack) Cabranes when I need him?
I'm not willing to take that chance. The fact that I HAVE TO buckle up (which I do) in a car, yet the HD rider goes whipping by me helmetless on Minnesoata roads tells you the upside down world of legislation.
If this kind of dicotomy exists in the legislation passed in our states, then my trust that the governmnet will stop after just eating one chip is very, very low.
If you trust the govenment to make the right decision, then tell me how Scott's Oregon can pass a silly law that you can move someone's motorcycle out of a parking spot!
You are too trusting Bubba.
If you legislate one, you have to legislate them all. Each activity I have used as examples are inheritly risky, inheritly pose a risk to the public, and have been discussed in many, many public and government forums and in the reason for litigation in many "slip and fall"type detainers. Where o where is John (Jack) Cabranes when I need him?
B
BUBBAZANETTI
Guest
my position is based little on trust and highly on faith.
M
MARTYW
Guest
Is that a 4th argument for helmets then? Allowing helmets to become mandatory will satisfy safety regulators and ensure that we are allowed to keep our motorcycles. Give a little to get a little.
Is there discussion on some government hill somewhere to ban motorcycles? Would you support mandatory air bags, acceleration and speed governors on motorcycles too, in order to keep motorcycling out of the governments eye? Is this a credible threat or are we "worst-case scenario" ing.
Is there discussion on some government hill somewhere to ban motorcycles? Would you support mandatory air bags, acceleration and speed governors on motorcycles too, in order to keep motorcycling out of the governments eye? Is this a credible threat or are we "worst-case scenario" ing.
redclfco
New member
At this years Dells rally, they had a Wisconsin highway patrol motorcycle cop put on a presentation, and afterwards, he was there for one on one questions; so I ask em "just out of interest, what kind of bike to you personally ride and what kind helmet do you wear off hours?" (HeÔÇÖs standing there with his baby blue brain bucket next to his HD service ride).
His answer surprised me (Wezul you were there I think) is that he does not wear one, that (in his words) have seen too many accidents where neck trauma was caused by helmets, and the reduced visibility in wearing a helmet is a risk he's not willing to take.
BTW his choice of rides? HD FLT.
This comes from a LEO.
His answer surprised me (Wezul you were there I think) is that he does not wear one, that (in his words) have seen too many accidents where neck trauma was caused by helmets, and the reduced visibility in wearing a helmet is a risk he's not willing to take.
BTW his choice of rides? HD FLT.
This comes from a LEO.
savategreg
New member
Never posted before so please excuse any formality violations.
I always wear a seatbelt in a car and I always wear a helmet on a bike but I am vehemently against mandatory laws.
You see I have a family member and a friend in liver failure secondary to occupationally acquired illness. The unforseen consequences of these mandatory and misplaced " safety" laws are the severe decrease on available cadaveric organs for implantation. The soccer moms who drive blind and cut off Other vehicles willy nilly in traffic and the crotchrocket riders who pop wheelies in front of my car after cutting me off in traffic, wearing shorts and flipflops all look like suitable donors to me. That and the obviously overpopulated planet all give good evidence that life is a wee bit too "free" for many in this country. I always err on the aide of safety but those who wish to ride the edge are welcome too and encouraged by me. Keep the government our of my personal choices.
Z
I always wear a seatbelt in a car and I always wear a helmet on a bike but I am vehemently against mandatory laws.
You see I have a family member and a friend in liver failure secondary to occupationally acquired illness. The unforseen consequences of these mandatory and misplaced " safety" laws are the severe decrease on available cadaveric organs for implantation. The soccer moms who drive blind and cut off Other vehicles willy nilly in traffic and the crotchrocket riders who pop wheelies in front of my car after cutting me off in traffic, wearing shorts and flipflops all look like suitable donors to me. That and the obviously overpopulated planet all give good evidence that life is a wee bit too "free" for many in this country. I always err on the aide of safety but those who wish to ride the edge are welcome too and encouraged by me. Keep the government our of my personal choices.
Z
Unfortunately, because of the lack of responsibility of some people the government has to step up to the plate. Last year the number of Americans without health insurance rose to 46.3 million. Ask yourself of those 46.3 million how many ride bikes. According to one Harvard study 60% of all personal bankruptcies in 2007 were caused by health care costs, and that's not just motorcycle accidents.
Now ask yourself what the cost is for one night in an intensive care unit with severe head trauma.
Why should the government, and by the way that's you and me, pay the cost of someone's hospital stay so they can look cool and rail about personal freedom.
And like the earlier writer said, there is a duty owed to support one's wife and kids. Are we to believe that personal freedom requires the government to support them as well?
And even if you have 100% coverage for all injuries and a fortune in the bank to boot, why cause the health care system to treat someone's largely preventable injury when they could better spend their time treating a patient who has cancer, heart disease or a real victim.
"The price of greatness is responsibility."
Sir Winston Churchill
Easy
Now ask yourself what the cost is for one night in an intensive care unit with severe head trauma.
Why should the government, and by the way that's you and me, pay the cost of someone's hospital stay so they can look cool and rail about personal freedom.
And like the earlier writer said, there is a duty owed to support one's wife and kids. Are we to believe that personal freedom requires the government to support them as well?
And even if you have 100% coverage for all injuries and a fortune in the bank to boot, why cause the health care system to treat someone's largely preventable injury when they could better spend their time treating a patient who has cancer, heart disease or a real victim.
"The price of greatness is responsibility."
Sir Winston Churchill
Easy
greenwald
New member
savategreg
New member
There are many reasons why healthcare costs have spiralled out of contol. Look to greed as a major contributor here. MDs complain about rising costs of malpractice insurance, yet I don't see them driving Kias or living in rented apartments. Becoming a millionare should take a little more time and effort than simply entering a profession where " someone else" always pays the bill. My solution? NO health insurance at all for anyone. A bit extreme perhaps but after a decade, healthcare costs would drop and the undertakers would be the new millonaires! People who look to government to keep them safe should have been weaned by their mothers a little earlier in life!! I'm just sayin' !
Z
Z
sjbmw
Roadster Rider
Love a good helmet thread!
The age old argument, and it's a great example of what our society is facing on many fronts.
The rights of the individual vs. the demands of the collective.
I want to see the stats on how many helmet less motorcycle riders killed someone else besides themselves by not wearing a helmet. Do we have that dangerous number?
How about we identify people who eat bacon and eggs every morning and let's whip on them a while too?
But let's not bring up "my insurance premiums" again, it's a wasted argument, as the helmet free state of PA has lower motorcycle rates than my helmet forced state of NJ.
It's much more palatable when people are honest and state that ordering other people around due to an over inflated ego fueled by self righteousness gets one's rocks off.
If they ever create a "mind your own business" law many would do hard time.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty."
— Thomas Jefferson
The age old argument, and it's a great example of what our society is facing on many fronts.
The rights of the individual vs. the demands of the collective.
I want to see the stats on how many helmet less motorcycle riders killed someone else besides themselves by not wearing a helmet. Do we have that dangerous number?
How about we identify people who eat bacon and eggs every morning and let's whip on them a while too?
But let's not bring up "my insurance premiums" again, it's a wasted argument, as the helmet free state of PA has lower motorcycle rates than my helmet forced state of NJ.
It's much more palatable when people are honest and state that ordering other people around due to an over inflated ego fueled by self righteousness gets one's rocks off.
If they ever create a "mind your own business" law many would do hard time.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty."
— Thomas Jefferson
redclfco
New member
redclfco
New member
I think they are afraid helmet laws will lead to a ban of motorcycles just like seat belt laws have led to a ban of automobiles... oh wait...
I have to repeat myself...
"I'm not willing to take that chance. The fact that I HAVE TO buckle up (which I do) in a car, yet the HD rider goes whipping by me helmetless on Minnesoata roads tells you the upside down world of legislation. "
You can't fix stupid, even when it comes to an LEO.
Just leave stupid alone, and it will fix itself!
B
BUBBAZANETTI
Guest
so lets tally this up, people who are bad drivers, inattentive, low on funds and in poor health are sort of "undesirable" hmmm?
tessler
univers zero
So? Chance? What chance are you taking?
Hey man, if you secretly fantasize about being the HD rider, by all means, no one's stopping you. This be America, there ain't no slippery slope. It's just the off-camber of that road you're thinking about.
LENRT1200ST
New member
Redux - Tavern on the Green
This debate is very interesting. It reminds me of the lively TOTG discussions. I miss that forum sometimes...
Isn't helmet use a personal choice no matter how you slice it; law or no law?
One could always chose to break the law or... meet the requirement, yet not really protest his/her head in the event of a crash.
The law mandates helmet usage, in GA where I live. And there are helmets which qualify as legal, and yet do little to protect their wearer.
As for the LEO who does not wear a helmet when off-duty riding because it restricts his vision... Question: Would he then enter a pro football game as a running back helmet-less and take on the defence? Pretty crazy idea, you think but, people can/will rationalize anything! Foolishness, I say.
Len
This debate is very interesting. It reminds me of the lively TOTG discussions. I miss that forum sometimes...
Isn't helmet use a personal choice no matter how you slice it; law or no law?
One could always chose to break the law or... meet the requirement, yet not really protest his/her head in the event of a crash.The law mandates helmet usage, in GA where I live. And there are helmets which qualify as legal, and yet do little to protect their wearer.
As for the LEO who does not wear a helmet when off-duty riding because it restricts his vision... Question: Would he then enter a pro football game as a running back helmet-less and take on the defence? Pretty crazy idea, you think but, people can/will rationalize anything! Foolishness, I say.
Len
DMR
New member
From the original...
Motorcycle-related head injury deaths increased 66 percent, whereas non-head injury deaths increased 25 percent.
Am I missing something, or is this a misprint?
If this is accurate, how would wearing a helmet decrease non-head injury deaths? And why would non-head injury deaths increase after the repeal of the helmet law?
Perhaps there are other factors here, including the number of riders, miles travelled, and the type of riding done. If we assume it's due entirely to helmetless riders, the increase mentioned above seems contradictory, or maybe I'm just clueless.
Motorcycle-related head injury deaths increased 66 percent, whereas non-head injury deaths increased 25 percent.
Am I missing something, or is this a misprint?
If this is accurate, how would wearing a helmet decrease non-head injury deaths? And why would non-head injury deaths increase after the repeal of the helmet law?
Perhaps there are other factors here, including the number of riders, miles travelled, and the type of riding done. If we assume it's due entirely to helmetless riders, the increase mentioned above seems contradictory, or maybe I'm just clueless.
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