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Sidecar Training at the 2011 Rally
- Thread starter aa3jy
- Start date
Historically, the MOA has been aligned with the Motorcycle Safety Foundation, and three-wheeler training has seldom been addressed. I did manage to do a Sidecar Driving course once--way back at the first Redmond, OR rally. Since then, the focus has been on offering various (two-wheeled) courses, including the BRC, ERC, etc.
In lieu of a formal three-wheeler course, several of us have volunteered to conduct seminars at different rallies. Seminars allow serious consideration of questions about mounting, handling, etc. without the need for a training range, liability insurance, etc.
It would be possible for someone to offer an "advanced" S/TEP at the rally. "Advanced" means a one day course for already-experienced drivers. On the east coast, the most proactive training organization for three wheelers has been the Motorcycle Safety League of Virginia, Inc. and the chief S/TEP instructor in VA is Cundiff Simmons. Cundiff tows a trailer that serves as both transport of novice sidecar outfits, and a portable classroom. He's within a few hours of PA.
Based on the questions aging riders asked me about my Spyder at the 2010 rally, I believe it would be appropriate to focus more seriously on three-wheeled motorcycles at MOA rallies. The BMWMOA Foundation has taken responsibility for training issues. My suggestion would be for a sidecarist to coordinate with the Foundation. I'd suggest Don Braasch, donbraasch@frontier.com, or MOA director David Grant, dave@whatnextmotorcycletraining.com.
I'm not planning to be at the 2011 MOA rally. But if anyone would like to do an "Introduction to Sidecars and Trikes" seminar, I could provide the PowerPoint pitch that I offered at previous events.
Note that seminars are handled somewhat differently from training courses. To conduct a seminar, contact the seminar coordinator and request a time slot. You will very likely have use of a seminar room, complete with computer and video projector.
pmdave
In lieu of a formal three-wheeler course, several of us have volunteered to conduct seminars at different rallies. Seminars allow serious consideration of questions about mounting, handling, etc. without the need for a training range, liability insurance, etc.
It would be possible for someone to offer an "advanced" S/TEP at the rally. "Advanced" means a one day course for already-experienced drivers. On the east coast, the most proactive training organization for three wheelers has been the Motorcycle Safety League of Virginia, Inc. and the chief S/TEP instructor in VA is Cundiff Simmons. Cundiff tows a trailer that serves as both transport of novice sidecar outfits, and a portable classroom. He's within a few hours of PA.
Based on the questions aging riders asked me about my Spyder at the 2010 rally, I believe it would be appropriate to focus more seriously on three-wheeled motorcycles at MOA rallies. The BMWMOA Foundation has taken responsibility for training issues. My suggestion would be for a sidecarist to coordinate with the Foundation. I'd suggest Don Braasch, donbraasch@frontier.com, or MOA director David Grant, dave@whatnextmotorcycletraining.com.
I'm not planning to be at the 2011 MOA rally. But if anyone would like to do an "Introduction to Sidecars and Trikes" seminar, I could provide the PowerPoint pitch that I offered at previous events.
Note that seminars are handled somewhat differently from training courses. To conduct a seminar, contact the seminar coordinator and request a time slot. You will very likely have use of a seminar room, complete with computer and video projector.
pmdave
kthutchinson
Member
The MSF now has a 3-wheel BRC. But, since no manufacturer associated with the MSF produces a sidecar rig, the course is only for trikes or bikes such as the Can-Am Spyder.
It's worth noting that the MSF's "new" 3WBRC is a slight rework of the Basic RiderCourse, to allow trikes to fit into the "bike" exercises. For anyone contemplating training, who doesn't need to obtain a 3W endorsement in Pennsylvania, I would heartily suggest taking the Sidecar/Trike Education Program.
The S/TEP won't get you an endorsement in PA, but it will certainly give you some good information about driving a sidecar rig.
pmdave
The S/TEP won't get you an endorsement in PA, but it will certainly give you some good information about driving a sidecar rig.
pmdave
railbender
New member
Claude Stanley is not that far from the rally site. Perhaps Claude/Sidekarz could be persuaded to hold a course at their facility that weekend.
chiba
hack'd
A real shame, since a 2-in-front behaves completely differently than a 2-in-back.
--chiba
Since the MSF's 3WBRC is a minor revision to the BRC to allow the extra width of a three-wheeler, I have to believe the course is more an attempt to answer the concerns of the manufacturers of trikes who support the MSF, than a course to help drivers of three-wheelers to obtain the skill and knowledge needed to head out on public roads. In that vein, it make no difference whether the vehicle used in the 3WBRC is 2L 1R, 2F 1R, 1F 2R, or whatever.
However, I think the big dogs at BMWMOA could be convinced that a proper three-wheeler course would be popular among those members who are approaching the age where balancing a bike is getting difficult. sidecar/trike training hasn't been a big priority within the MOA until now, perhaps because the majority of memberss are physically able to handle a bike.
Personally, I favor the "seminar" approach to training at rallies, where a rally-goer can spend an hour or maybe 90 minutes, but not all day. A training course takes all day. However, training is available at sites all across North America, so it's not as if the only place to get training is an MOA rally.
If The Foundation did decide to offer a sidecar/trike course at the PA rally, I'd suggest the S/TEP model, with certified instructors, rather than the 3WBRC model taught by RiderCoaches who are not necessarily three-wheel experienced.
pmdave
However, I think the big dogs at BMWMOA could be convinced that a proper three-wheeler course would be popular among those members who are approaching the age where balancing a bike is getting difficult. sidecar/trike training hasn't been a big priority within the MOA until now, perhaps because the majority of memberss are physically able to handle a bike.
Personally, I favor the "seminar" approach to training at rallies, where a rally-goer can spend an hour or maybe 90 minutes, but not all day. A training course takes all day. However, training is available at sites all across North America, so it's not as if the only place to get training is an MOA rally.
If The Foundation did decide to offer a sidecar/trike course at the PA rally, I'd suggest the S/TEP model, with certified instructors, rather than the 3WBRC model taught by RiderCoaches who are not necessarily three-wheel experienced.
pmdave
What I don't understand is why the MOA Foundation in their own words..
Mission Statement
The easiest way to understand the BMW MOA Foundation is by looking at its mission. Its mission is:
The BMW Motorcycle Owners of America Foundation is dedicated to improving rider safety, and supporting motorcycling and its rich heritage.
This mission is based on the following goals.
* Promote programs for first-time riders, with an emphasis on youth, women and families
* Establish a clearinghouse for information related to the proper maintenance and safe motorcycle operation
* Support educational and personal growth programs related to safe and enjoyable motorcycle use
* Respond positively to the initiatives of donors and supporters within the stated Mission and vision of the Foundation, and to seek opportunities to partner with other organizations with similar missions and vision
..should be supporting all methodologies (MSF and S/TEP)of motorcycle safety..be it 2 wheels or 3. By their (MOA Foundation) silence in not addressing this issue therefore goes counter intuitive to the their mission statement....
For many years, "motorcycle safety" in the eyes of BMW training enthusiasts meant "MSF curricula." There are still many people who believe the MSF has all the tools and the altruistic motivation to take care of all motorcycle safety needs. So, when a rally comes around, it's hard for the organizers of training courses to think outside of the "MSF box."
Some of us have pushed on The Foundation and it's leadership to start thinking outside of the MSF box, and perhaps offer other courses, including the S/TEP for drivers of three-wheelers, or a cornering range. But it's hard to break old habits.
When the suggestion was made to have TEAM Oregon do one or more of their courses at the 2010 Redmond, OR rally, rather than the MSF's ERC (which isn't authorized in Oregon), no one could seem to make contact with Team Oregon managers. And, "whether you think you can or think you can't, you're probably correct." So, it was business as usual at Redmond. We did have a representative of Team Oregon at Coffee With Dave, but no Oregon courses. It was a splendid opportunity lost.
There is also a more sinister situation afoot. Motorcycle Industry Council lobbyists have quietly approached various states with strong suggestions to make MSF curricula and MSF RiderCoaches a monopoly. For example, in North Carolina, the only approved training is MSF. Others are not allowed. That means that in NC, someone offering the S/TEP could get shut down by the state.
State bureaucrats and lawmakers don't understand the complexity of rider training, nor the duplicity of the MSF, nor the cosy situation where the MSF, MIC, and SVIA occupy the same offices and have the same president. That's how the MSF (who are prevented from lobbying) can have the MIC (who can legally lobby) help create situation that just happens to favor the MSF.
OK, now let's note that Pennsylvania is one of the states where the MSF holds the contract for administering the state Motorcycle Safety Program. The MOA rally will be in PA. MSF does not recognize the ESC or S/TEP, does not allow a completion card for the S/TEP as a license test waiver, and certainly doesn't speak "sidecar."
Many (perhaps all) of the Foundation training enthusiasts are MSF certified RiderCoaches. Any suggestion to offer training other than MSF, even at an MOA rally, could be seen as insubordination. But what power does the MSF hold over RiderCoaches? Well, there's the not-too-subtle threat to lose your certification.
If it's not obvious, it would be much better if someone who were not MSF certified took up the cause and "forced" the Foundation to include three wheeler seminars and training. "It wasn't our idea, Mr. Buche, sir. We had to cave in to our members' demands."
pmdave
Some of us have pushed on The Foundation and it's leadership to start thinking outside of the MSF box, and perhaps offer other courses, including the S/TEP for drivers of three-wheelers, or a cornering range. But it's hard to break old habits.
When the suggestion was made to have TEAM Oregon do one or more of their courses at the 2010 Redmond, OR rally, rather than the MSF's ERC (which isn't authorized in Oregon), no one could seem to make contact with Team Oregon managers. And, "whether you think you can or think you can't, you're probably correct." So, it was business as usual at Redmond. We did have a representative of Team Oregon at Coffee With Dave, but no Oregon courses. It was a splendid opportunity lost.
There is also a more sinister situation afoot. Motorcycle Industry Council lobbyists have quietly approached various states with strong suggestions to make MSF curricula and MSF RiderCoaches a monopoly. For example, in North Carolina, the only approved training is MSF. Others are not allowed. That means that in NC, someone offering the S/TEP could get shut down by the state.
State bureaucrats and lawmakers don't understand the complexity of rider training, nor the duplicity of the MSF, nor the cosy situation where the MSF, MIC, and SVIA occupy the same offices and have the same president. That's how the MSF (who are prevented from lobbying) can have the MIC (who can legally lobby) help create situation that just happens to favor the MSF.
OK, now let's note that Pennsylvania is one of the states where the MSF holds the contract for administering the state Motorcycle Safety Program. The MOA rally will be in PA. MSF does not recognize the ESC or S/TEP, does not allow a completion card for the S/TEP as a license test waiver, and certainly doesn't speak "sidecar."
Many (perhaps all) of the Foundation training enthusiasts are MSF certified RiderCoaches. Any suggestion to offer training other than MSF, even at an MOA rally, could be seen as insubordination. But what power does the MSF hold over RiderCoaches? Well, there's the not-too-subtle threat to lose your certification.
If it's not obvious, it would be much better if someone who were not MSF certified took up the cause and "forced" the Foundation to include three wheeler seminars and training. "It wasn't our idea, Mr. Buche, sir. We had to cave in to our members' demands."
pmdave
ted
Dum vivimus vivamus
With a largely volunteer-based organization often asking for something is not enough, it usually takes a motivated individual to volunteer to do the work. This very website and online community is a great example of that. I don't have a bike with sidecar but they have always interested me, and I and I am sure others would attend a seminar on how they are different, where to get trained, etc. As ever, "I will do it" almost always yields better results than "you should do it."
I'm using "forced" tongue-in-cheek. I know there are individuals involved in the MOA Foundation and in rally organization who are sympathetic to sidecars. But there hasn't been a huge demand for three-wheeler training.
If you think sidecar/trike training or seminars should be offered at the PA rally, you should make your feelings known to the organizers.
Personally, although I have volunteered to do stuff at previous rallies, I'm not planning to attend the 2011 rally. Too far, too expensive, too old, yadda yadda.
pmdave
If you think sidecar/trike training or seminars should be offered at the PA rally, you should make your feelings known to the organizers.
Personally, although I have volunteered to do stuff at previous rallies, I'm not planning to attend the 2011 rally. Too far, too expensive, too old, yadda yadda.
pmdave
grafikfeat
New member
With a largely volunteer-based organization often asking for something is not enough, it usually takes a motivated individual to volunteer to do the work. This very website and online community is a great example of that. I don't have a bike with sidecar but they have always interested me, and I and I am sure others would attend a seminar on how they are different, where to get trained, etc. As ever, "I will do it" almost always yields better results than "you should do it."
The very inclusion of this side car section was a start.
Being told from the beginning the 'interest' wasn't there seems to have gone the wayside.
Perhaps a few threads started to invoke volunteerism regarding seminar/training may be the next step.
Perhaps an 'interest in training' poll to see just how interested folks are.
dmaust01
Mark A.
With a largely volunteer-based organization often asking for something is not enough, it usually takes a motivated individual to volunteer to do the work. This very website and online community is a great example of that. I don't have a bike with sidecar but they have always interested me, and I and I am sure others would attend a seminar on how they are different, where to get trained, etc. As ever, "I will do it" almost always yields better results than "you should do it."
I am the chair of the rally and I will be glad to look into the issue if someone knows of a qualified instructor, school, etc. in the area or if someone that is qualified to train others would like to volunteer for such a course. I have a sidecar rig, but I am not connected with any type of training program or resources. This could be a positive addition to the rally.
At the risk of repeating Dave and Ted, if anyone is interested in conducting a seminar on sidecars, or anything else related to the interests of BMW MOA members, please contact the seminar chair as soon as you can (Deb Lower). A seminar and actual training are two distinct issues.
As far as I know, this is not a deliberate oversight by the Foundation or a sign of hostility toward sidecars. Limited resources, interests, and relying on volunteers can limit the breadth of the issues that they are able to adequately address at any particular time. Our rallies are planned and staffed, for the most part, by volunteers with the assistance of the MOA staff. Therefore, many of the activities, seminars, etc. are the result of a volunteer(s) proposing and working on an issue, activity, etc. for which they have a special interest, talent, or skill, as Dave has done many times for BMW riders and the larger motorcycling community. As far as I know, no one has proposed any seminars concerning sidecars for this rally, but I will check.
Thanks for your interest,
Mark
There is only one sidecar training program...
http://www.esc.org/step_national_schedule.php
As of yet MSF does not provide sidecar training..3-wheel BRC...yes..but not sidecar
http://www.esc.org/step_national_schedule.php
As of yet MSF does not provide sidecar training..3-wheel BRC...yes..but not sidecar
grafikfeat
New member
In lieu of "certified training" why not have a talk or two over the course of the rally?
A place for sidecarists to gather and compare notes/rigs/technique etc.
Perhaps even answer a few questions of the newly ordained or overtly curious.
Schedule a ride, give rides, judged show, play games... Waddeva...
Minimally make it known that hacks are a part of the MOA and the rally experience.
52184
GTRider
S/TEP really needs a full weekend, is there that much time available at the rally? What about a one-day advanced course more along the lines of the MSF's ERC class?
For sure one thing that would be beneficial would be an opportunity for someone considering sidecaring to take a ride in a rig as a passenger. Part of the reason I'm into sidecaring is because my wife was offered a ride in one at the Missoula rally in 1998. We rode two-up to the rally on our RS but the sidecar ride planted the idea that MC travel was still possible and fun when swinging a leg over wasn't. 12 years later we acquired a sidecar and enjoy the heck out of traveling on it. I know liability would be an issue but that may be an area where BMWMOA could assist.
Best,
GTRider
For sure one thing that would be beneficial would be an opportunity for someone considering sidecaring to take a ride in a rig as a passenger. Part of the reason I'm into sidecaring is because my wife was offered a ride in one at the Missoula rally in 1998. We rode two-up to the rally on our RS but the sidecar ride planted the idea that MC travel was still possible and fun when swinging a leg over wasn't. 12 years later we acquired a sidecar and enjoy the heck out of traveling on it. I know liability would be an issue but that may be an area where BMWMOA could assist.
Best,
GTRider
grafikfeat
New member
Why does it have to be 'training'? 
Why not a seminar/talk/show to introduce folks to the benefits etc.
Why not a seminar/talk/show to introduce folks to the benefits etc.
Mark, I've volunteered in the past, but I won't be there this year.
There are a number of sidecar/trike courses offered in Virginia, and the guy in the know is Cundiff Simmons. He tows a trailer that transports the novice rigs and then serves as a classroom.
I suggest you ask Cundiff about offering an "advanced" S/TEP at the rally for experienced operators. Bystanders should be encouraged.
Or, perhaps Cundiff could be convinced to do a seminar. I'm going to forward your message to Cundiff.
c.h.simmons@juno.com
There are a number of sidecar/trike courses offered in Virginia, and the guy in the know is Cundiff Simmons. He tows a trailer that transports the novice rigs and then serves as a classroom.
I suggest you ask Cundiff about offering an "advanced" S/TEP at the rally for experienced operators. Bystanders should be encouraged.
Or, perhaps Cundiff could be convinced to do a seminar. I'm going to forward your message to Cundiff.
c.h.simmons@juno.com
Why does it have to be 'training'?
Why not a seminar/talk/show to introduce folks to the benefits etc.
(1) The original post was titled "...Training at..?"
(2) Lets put words(Seminar/Talk/Show) into action by actual training
(3) Why not have a sidecar training class as well as the already sked MSF's ERC
