Having a Veteran organztion (DAV) at the 2007 rally

[bigdelta]

Sue,what is your position on this proposal?
The following was posted on the vBMWr message board today:

Greeting Members,
As of today I official have asked the BMW MOA by the way of the
rally chair Sue Rihn-Manke, if the Disabled American Veteran's (DAV)
could be apart the 2007 national rally in WI. This letter was sent
out partly because some of the question that other Veterans were
asking me at the 2006 rally once they found out that I was disabled
Veteran and, that I had founded vBMWr. The question were about
Veteran issues about claims and how the VA process and other items
along that line, and about this club. So I did some checking with
other Veteran service organization and discovered that the only
Veteran service organization that could and possibility attend this
rally would be the DAV with their Nation Service Officers and a
mobile trailer to help answer question about filing claims and other
veteran issues that other veteran's may have that are attending this
2007 rally. At this time the Rally Chair person is having mixed
feeling because does not know if she what them there for the
following reasons:
1. Having a Veteran type service organization be apart of the
rally, because it has never been done in the past.
2. Because she states that they are not apart of motorcycling
community.
3. She does know what the Disabled American Veteran are about
and what type of service they perform for the Veterans.
4. About having BMW MOA donating a space for the DAV for them
to provide service to fellow Veterans
There are other reasons but those are the basic ones, the way I look
at this:
1. If it was not for us Veterans past and future ones, I would
not have the freedom or the safety to purchase these high dollar
motorcycles
2. I hate to say this about Sue Rihn-Manke, she is non military
and she does not understand Veteran issues, and I have tried to
explain to her what DAV does and what type of mission it performs to
the Veteran.
3. BMW MOA does not understand how many veterans that are in
its ranks, and may see this as good idea.
4. Harley Davidson just gave over a million dollars to the DAV
because, the see who is buying there motorcycles, and why cannot the
BMW MOA give up one the non shaded areas at the rally to help
provide a service to the Veterans BMW community ther going to be
plenty those area at this rally.
5. It's are rally to, and we should have a say so in it.
At this time she has not given me the final word if DAV can come or
not, by talk with her it does not look in are favor. If Sue Rihn-
Manke says no then I will try to attend the open succession board
meeting 11/04/2006 in West Bend WI, and try to make the case for the
DAV to be apart of the rally. Until then we wait and see what
happens.
Michael Johnston
Founder: vBMWr

I'm a veteran and I'm in favor of it.

 

[HODAG]

isn't the DAV a privately funded special interest group?
yes they are committed to disabled Vets, but they are not a goverment sponsored Veterans agency.

I appreciate Veterans, but couldn't this open up the MOA to pressure from a bunch of special interest groups wanting to attend and get free space?

BTW the The Old Soldiers Home is not far from the Rally site, they still have a modern VA hospital there.

 

[shoeman]

Yes, the DAV is a special interest group. That special interest is veterans wounded and disabled in combat while serving this country. Unless you are ruled disabled by the US Government from combat you are ineligible to join, serve on its board or benefit from it ( the DAV).

The beauracracy faced by vets in filling out governmental paperwork, keeping up with their rightsis formidible. Become blind, have your lungs burnt away, have no legs or arms or be completely immobilized and it is even more difficult.

Yes, there may be a VA near the Rally sight. Visit one. Spend some time with a vet that is disabled.

My son is a disabled vet. He is 27. He has monthly checkups to monitor damage he sustained in combat. The disability(loss of hearing, chemical damage to his liver and loss of movement in joints as a result of close combat) do not prevent him from riding or carrying on a somewhat normal life. Without groups like the DAV he would be lost in a sea of red tape.

The government provides good benefits if you can navigate the sea of paper. the DAV, VFW and American Legion provide staff in the VA to help the disabled vet get through the paper work.

A close friend of mine went ashore at age 16 at Guam and 17 at Iwo Jima. Of 600 marines in his battalion four of them came out alive. He drank a fifth of whiskey every day of his life after that till he diead at age 68. The government had no programs to council or help. the DAV has pushed hard to get that type of counciling for our vets. Now they(the Vets) get it.

You are right. They are a special interest group and we probably as a group have no ability to discern the merit of them versus the flood of others that would apply once the cat got out of the bag that the MOA is an easy touch for special interest groups at their rally's.

 

[bigdelta]

What is YOUR problem marK11LT?

isn't the DAV a privately funded special interest group?
yes they are committed to disabled Vets, but they are not a goverment sponsored Veterans agency.

I appreciate Veterans, but couldn't this open up the MOA to pressure from a bunch of special interest groups wanting to attend and get free space?

BTW the The Old Soldiers Home is not far from the Rally site, they still have a modern VA hospital there.

are you watching out for the best interest of MY club?Do you have an agenda or an axe to grind with Veteran's groups?I wonder how many members of MY club are old enough to remember how Viet Nam era vets were treated when they returned home or just seen in uniform.I'm sure those same idiots that treated us poorly are jumping on the bandwagon now beacuse it's popular/politically correct to recognize a veteran.

 

[bigdelta]

Here's a response to a member of the VBMWr who also

questioned whether they should be there.Maybe it'll open some closed minds.
There are enough Veterans in the BMW community that may have question about and there benefits but do not ask about them, or even know that they have certain benefits. Because some Veterans have a hard time finding this
information, so why not try to bring to them. We are the first and only BMW Veteran Club out there; I believe that this would be one way to support other Veterans that in are BMW Community, and maybe this would be another way of adding something to rally besides serving beer. By having a Nation Organization like the DAV that is trained in helping Veteran with there VA or other related issues,would be better then us hand out flyers, because I my know some in's and out's about Veteran issues I am no expert, and these guy's are.The Disabled American Veteran's are not just about helping Disabled
Veterans it about helping all Veterans. By federal law they can not turn away any Veteran who comes to them for help or guidance.There are some DAV Motorcycle Chapters out there so if one was to say they are not apart of the motorcycle community. Politics: yes the DAV is a lobbyist group for veterans, but sure are the insurance companies are also lobbyist group that come to rally, the only difference is one try to get your money the other one try to protect your Veteran rights help you. We also can get into the Friends of
Willie G and so on I looked into which Nation service organization
if the could attend the rally that could best help any veteran and that happened to be and that turned out to be DAV. I am not taking anything away from any other Nation Service Organization but they are the only one in the area that have a traveling unit and are set up for this type of activity.
For Sue and BMW MOA this is a new idea to them, and for someone like
her not knowing what type organization the DAV is, or what type of
service DAV provide to the veterans, or the community. I can see where see stands on her issues. But on the flip side what is the harm by having a National Service organization like the DAV there to help provide information Veteran BMW community on Veteran issues,where I would estimate that over half of the BMW MOA members are veterans. I am not asking for military recruiters to recruit at the rally that would be a political request.
No ____ _____, I did not bring the vBMWr into this. This was solo project that I was working on. As fellow Veteran I would think that you would support an idea like this that support other Veterans and would help them if it can. I was just informing this group that I proposed this idea of having a Nation Service Organization like the DAV at the 2007 rally and was running against opposition.
But back to the Apple and Oranges question if use that type of think
maybe we need to get rid of the beer tent at the next rally.
Because studies to so that alcohol and motorcycles don't mix. But
what like that will ever happen. And if something is never tried
how do we know that it is a good mix or not. This is what I do know
that the largest civil air show (EAA) in the USA at Oshkosh WI request that the DAV be present at there air show every year, maybe
that something to think about. Airplanes and DAV? BMW Motorcycles and DAV?
Maybe they know something we don't.

 

[SNOONE]

I'm not sure I understand the question.. Are you officially representing the National DAV organization or are you just asking that he MOA extend an invite to an organization that may or may not have any interest in attending our rally?

 

[HODAG]

yep exactly as I thought....
any counter point is deemed Anti-patriot Un-american not to mention being a Vet hater.

thanks big delta for second guessing me

 

[RandyB]

I haven't made it to a National Rally but am planning to be at this one, with my sons. I don't see a problem with inviting the DAV.

Not sure where the comment about not being a part of the motorcycling community came from. Hopefully I misunderstood something. Patriot Guards, Combat Veterans Motorcycle Association, vBMWr, etc. seem to be a part of the community.

God help us all if governmental affiliation becomes a requirement for anything else. Do we really need governmental busybodies more involved in our lives?

I say let 'em in. If this region is any indication, there are plenty of disabled or Purple Heart holding vets who would appreciate it. I would. If the HD crowd can figure it out, it should be a no-brainer for us.

Give them a shaded area while you're at it. Chances are they'll be older vets. They've stood in the sun enough.

 

[DcnDog]

Mark and Bigdelta,

Mark- Bigdelta didn't do any name calling.

Bigdelta- Mark has a point for discussion, which does not mean he has an agenda.

Treat one another with respect please.

Dan

 

[J Brase]

Let's look at some numbers

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (citing the Census Bureau's Current Population Survey) the number of Americans with a Service Connected Disability is 2.5 million or .9 percent of a total population of 280 Million.

"Service Connected Disability" in this context means any level of disability from 10% to 100%.

I will make an assumption here that disabled veterans make up about the same percentage of the BMW riding polulation as they do of the general population. (I can't think of a reason they would be represented in greater numbers.)

Extrapolating this ratio to an assumed rally attendance of 10,000 shows that about 90 attendees might benefit from visiting a DAV representative. I think we can also assume that some, perhaps significant, portion of the 90 already know their way through the VA minefield and/or have a low level Service Connected Disability and are not in need of DAV assistance.

I think a better approach would be for the charted vBMWr club to have and man its own information booth/trailer/tent where it could both inform and recruit. And maybe even offer hospitality.

John

 

[rob nye]

I think a better approach would be for the charted vBMWr club to have and man its own information booth/trailer/tent where it could both inform and recruit. And maybe even offer hospitality.

John

Now that is a fantastic idea!

Best,

 

[mika]

I support allowing vBMWr to acquire space at the international rally on the same basis as any other BMW MOA chartered club would. I support allowing them to have the DAV represented in that space to service the needs of their clubs members, and help recruit from the veteran membership of MOA. DAV should be allowed to be on the rally site on the same basis and held to the same standards of conduct as any non-member rally guest.

I urge the MOA Board of Directors to review our policies for allowing non motorcycle vendors and groups to represent themselves on the rally site. We now have a virtual / global category of chartered clubs. By their nature do not have a traditional geographic site for there members to come together with the exception of the international rally. MOA can anticipate request such as this as virtual chartered clubs grow because of that caveat. We need to address this caveat and come up with a policy that fairly addresses their needs, the needs of all our chartered clubs and at the same time maintains the integrity of the BMW MOA charter itself. 1. Rally site space is limited. As attendance and pressures on use increase we must make certain that it is allocated for the best uses of the entire association. 2. Are their groups that in another venue other than a MOA International Rally may be able to be formally represented; however, because that would violate terms of our charter with BMW, laws we operate under as a non profit, that could jeopardize other elements of MOA such as our .org designation for example, can not be represented at the international rally? 3. In addition to a virtual/global option we list 6 countries in addition to the US in our chartered club search criteria. I urge you to take this into consideration as you craft these regulations and guidelines.

Mark11LT can take care of himself and I will let him do that.

I am concerned with your depiction of Sue Rihn-Manke and by association the office of Chair of the International Rally. I believe both deserve better treatment from you.

I have seen pictures of Sue, I have seen the foot print Sue has left in the Association by the various work she has done, but I do not know her and am not certain I could pick her out of a crowd of one. Even though I do not know her, as a past rally chair, ambassador and MOA officer I believe she is very qualified to be rally chair.

The rally chair does not need to be intimately familiar with every aspect of the topics and issues represented at the rally. They are chair of the committee putting on the rally. There job is meeting the needs of MOA, its members and chartered clubs.

I can support you and your interests in the way described above. I can not support your criticisms of Sue Rihn-Manke or what I perceive to be a false litmus test for the qualifications to serve as an office of BMW MOA.

 

[DwayneH]

I agree in principal only

Michael, I too support charity, Heart & Stroke Foundation, and like you I too believe that charities need exposure to the public, and the BMWMOA Rally would be a great place to get the message out, and since most people will in some way be effected with Heart Disease, and given the demographic of the BMWMOA I would say it would make sense for the Heart & Stroke Foundation to be a part of it as well. Michael, I am willing to bet there are others on this forum, in the MOA that have similar strong convictions for their charities as well. Ive not heard of your charity before, maybe thats the segway? The thing is sooner or later other charities are going to want to be a part of it as well, and then guess whatinstead of a Rally about motorcycles where we can escape the rest of the world for one weekend, it will be about: Cancer, AIDS, Veterans affairs, Heart & Stoke, Kidney Disease you see where I am going with this right? I applaud your conviction, but a motorcycle rally is not the place. IMHO. What will end up happening is people will be hounded with sensory overload to support this Charity or this groupwhere does it end, will there be an on site walk in trailer doing conversions for Catholicism? Your charity sounds well intentioned, but so does every other charity. Right?

I do have one other statement though, you mentioned some of the reasons that rally chair Sue Rihn-Manke was having mixed feelings. What where the other reasons?

 

[bigdelta]

AS was plainly stated in the opening lines

I'm not sure I understand the question.. Are you officially representing the National DAV organization or are you just asking that he MOA extend an invite to an organization that may or may not have any interest in attending our rally?

I should have made that more clear-these were 2 messages posted on the vBMWr forum and I was asking the position of the Rally chair.I am not Miahael Johnston-he's the founder of another BMW club that I am proud to be a member of.

 

[bigdelta]

I haven't accused of being a Vet hater

yep exactly as I thought....
any counter point is deemed Anti-patriot Un-american not to mention being a Vet hater.

thanks big delta for second guessing me

but see you haven't replied since the flow has turned against the side you have taken.I will always 2nd guess people like you on Veteran related issues.
I see another poster has informed the group that you are a veteran and were fully aware of the DAV and what it does for Veterans.Is it necessary to play Devil's Advocate here?
You and the Group of 5 have many friends on this board.

 

[bigdelta]

M1ka- should have been more clear in my 1st post

I support allowing vBMWr to acquire space at the international rally on the same basis as any other BMW MOA chartered club would. I support allowing them to have the DAV represented in that space to service the needs of their clubs members, and help recruit from the veteran membership of MOA. DAV should be allowed to be on the rally site on the same basis and held to the same standards of conduct as any non-member rally guest.

I urge the MOA Board of Directors to review our policies for allowing non motorcycle vendors and groups to represent themselves on the rally site. We now have a virtual / global category of chartered clubs. By their nature do not have a traditional geographic site for there members to come together with the exception of the international rally. MOA can anticipate request such as this as virtual chartered clubs grow because of that caveat. We need to address this caveat and come up with a policy that fairly addresses their needs, the needs of all our chartered clubs and at the same time maintains the integrity of the BMW MOA charter itself. 1. Rally site space is limited. As attendance and pressures on use increase we must make certain that it is allocated for the best uses of the entire association. 2. Are their groups that in another venue other than a MOA International Rally may be able to be formally represented; however, because that would violate terms of our charter with BMW, laws we operate under as a non profit, that could jeopardize other elements of MOA such as our .org designation for example, can not be represented at the international rally? 3. In addition to a virtual/global option we list 6 countries in addition to the US in our chartered club search criteria. I urge you to take this into consideration as you craft these regulations and guidelines.

Mark11LT can take care of himself and I will let him do that.

I am concerned with your depiction of Sue Rihn-Manke and by association the office of Chair of the International Rally. I believe both deserve better treatment from you.

I have seen pictures of Sue, I have seen the foot print Sue has left in the Association by the various work she has done, but I do not know her and am not certain I could pick her out of a crowd of one. Even though I do not know her, as a past rally chair, ambassador and MOA officer I believe she is very qualified to be rally chair.

The rally chair does not need to be intimately familiar with every aspect of the topics and issues represented at the rally. They are chair of the committee putting on the rally. There job is meeting the needs of MOA, its members and chartered clubs.

I can support you and your interests in the way described above. I can not support your criticisms of Sue Rihn-Manke or what I perceive to be a false litmus test for the qualifications to serve as an office of BMW MOA.

It was the founder of another club-vBMWr-that posted it on their forum.
I read and posted it here as it concerns me.I don't expect an immediate response/solution to this request.I simply asked Sue's position and thank you for your support and understanding.
John

 

[HODAG]

but see you haven't replied since the flow has turned against the side you have taken.I will always 2nd guess people like you on Veteran related issues.
Guess I have to leave you alone Mark.You and the Group of 5 have many friends on this board.

Hey Big Delta.....

PM sent

 

[kbasa]

I think a better approach would be for the charted vBMWr club to have and man its own information booth/trailer/tent where it could both inform and recruit. And maybe even offer hospitality.

John

I like this. Good for the vBMWr club and good for their members.

 

[testinglogin]

I think a better approach would be for the charted vBMWr club to have and man its own information booth/trailer/tent where it could both inform and recruit. And maybe even offer hospitality.

I agree with the other posters who think this is a good idea. If we allow every charity organization some space in the expo area, pretty soon there would be no space for vendors. I was thinking over my lunch that there are probably even more riders who are asthmatic, and could benefit from the Asthma and Allergy Foundation being there. I'm not SUGGESTING that, just an example of how it could get out of control. Next thing you know, the ADA, American Cancer Society, American Socialist Party, and the local HOG chapter will want to set up.

I think the group manning their own small area would be fine. Heck, grab a picnic table in the public area and put up a small sign on the table, and work from there?

 

[bigdelta]

dwayne,the DAV isn't a charity

Michael, I too support charity, Heart & Stroke Foundation, and like you I too believe that charities need exposure to the public, and the BMWMOA Rally would be a great place to get the message out, and since most people will in some way be effected with Heart Disease, and given the demographic of the BMWMOA I would say it would make sense for the Heart & Stroke Foundation to be a part of it as well. Michael, I am willing to bet there are others on this forum, in the MOA that have similar strong convictions for their charities as well. Ive not heard of your charity before, maybe thats the segway? The thing is sooner or later other charities are going to want to be a part of it as well, and then guess whatinstead of a Rally about motorcycles where we can escape the rest of the world for one weekend, it will be about: Cancer, AIDS, Veterans affairs, Heart & Stoke, Kidney Disease you see where I am going with this right? I applaud your conviction, but a motorcycle rally is not the place. IMHO. What will end up happening is people will be hounded with sensory overload to support this Charity or this groupwhere does it end, will there be an on site walk in trailer doing conversions for Catholicism? Your charity sounds well intentioned, but so does every other charity. Right?
I do have one other statement though, you mentioned some of the reasons that rally chair Sue Rihn-Manke was having mixed feelings. What where the other reasons?

I'll send a PM explaining what the DAV is and does.