Clutch Replacement ?

[tonyr]

Hi,
Has anyone replaced their clutch? If so, did it improve/resolve the clutch drag issue?

I've just purchased a 2015 GS with 7500 km on it. It has a significant clunk when going into first from neutral. So significant, that the bike will jump slightly and I have to keep the brake applied. If I'm not firm with gear selection (neutral to 1st) the dog teeth will hammer away. After the bike has been in a lot of traffic finding neutral gets increasingly difficult.

I just took it to the local dealer who did the 10,000k service & safety. Their comment on the clutch was that it's normal! I've come from a 2005 GS so I'm used to GS gear change clunk but to me this is not normal and certainly not acceptable. Living in a big city with lot's of traffic makes the issue even worse. I know slipping into first when slowing minimizes the issue but sitting at a long red traffic light holding the clutch in gets frustrating at times.

This has completely marred the excitement of what is otherwise a wonderful bike. Just feeling gutted along with the concern of future gearbox damage.

The bike has had all the upgrades applied (software, clutch spacer) as far as I can tell.

Any suggestions or thoughts?

Thx
Tony

 

[Omega Man]

Interesting. I think any bike I've ever had exhibited those symptoms. There is a "rotating mass" being brought to an abrupt halt when you activate the "meshing" by putting it in gear

Try holding the clutch in for 30 seconds and then dropping it into first. My guess the "clunk" is less as the gears had some time to "get organized".

OM

 

[tonyr]

Interesting. I think any bike I've ever had exhibited those symptoms. There is a "rotating mass" being brought to an abrupt halt when you activate the "meshing" by putting it in gear

Try holding the clutch in for 30 seconds and then dropping it into first. My guess the "clunk" is less as the gears had some time to "get organized".

OM

Thx OM for the suggestion, I did try that but little or no difference.
(The 2015 I rented last summer didn't have this issue)

 

[Omega Man]

Seems like you are on the right track by comparing other bikes. I can't remember if those bikes run a hydraulic clutch or not- if so, can you short stroke "pump" the clutch and change the goings on?
OM

 

[kbowman]

I have a 2015 R1200GS with just over 9000 miles on it. The transmission/clutch has always behaved exactly as you describe. Shifting in the lower gears, especially between 1st, neutral, and 2nd, always involves a hefty *chunk*. I often feel some chatter when shifting in the lower gears, as though the dogs are slipping before engaging. The higher gears, on the other hand, shift smoothly with or without the clutch (the bike came with Gear Shift Assist Pro).

I have always assumed, perhaps naively, that this is how the transmission is designed to operate (although I am not particularly impressed). I would say the engine is from BMW and the low end of the transmission is from a tractor. It is great on the highway, but not much fun in traffic going up and down through the lower gears. I usually put it in neutral at red lights and then bang it into 1st when it turns green.

Ken

 

[patm]

I have always assumed, perhaps naively, that this is how the transmission is designed to operate (although I am not particularly impressed). I would say the engine is from BMW and the low end of the transmission is from a tractor. It is great on the highway, but not much fun in traffic going up and down through the lower gears. I usually put it in neutral at red lights and then bang it into 1st when it turns green.

Ken

That sounds like my '16 RT.

 

[ncpbmw1953]

Hi Tony,

Yes, this is BMW's wet-clutch implementation for water boxers which is being revised for 2017 w/ the addition of a 'judder damper', which I take to mean something to soften the clunk--it's name to me implies a band-aid of sorts.

In reality, once you learn how to live with this wet clutch, it's not bad at all. I would never contemplate trading in on a '17 because truthfully it's a 100% non-issue for me now, but it took some experience to learn how to work with its niggles. Plus who knows if there will be new problems with the new design. Here are my suggestions for you:

1. Before starting the engine, put the bike in 1st gear and roll back a few inches to break-the-seal as it were between adjacent parts. If it's even modestly cool out [<66F or so] on a cold engine, you don't have to start in 1st as long as you roll back to break the seal first. The bike should drop into 1st from N on a cold engine in cool ambient with no clunk whatsoever. As the engine sits there warming up though, the clunk will happen and there is no way around this.

When it's warmer outside and/or the bike is warmed up even a little, do the roll-back in 1st, then start it in 1st every time. Won't hurt a thing. If your bike surges forward more than a tiny hint of a surge, perhaps the clutch is out of adjustment so check that out and set it to spec.

2. While riding, follow this basic approach. As you're downshifting coming to a stop, drop it into 2nd then to N and coast a few feet, with subtle pressure on the shifter towards 1st. When you get good at this it will go into 1st with zero clunk--really! It's a learned/finesse thing but truly I never have clunks going into 1st now.

3. When you're NOT going to be stopping, let's say you're in a harpin turn or making a hard right turn at an intersection where you won't be stopping but the bike needs to be in 1st because you're going too slow for 2nd: do a higher rev blip than you might think, and definitely be 'authoritative' when you drop it into 1st, else you will get the bouncing dogs issue you describe. I never have this anymore, and I'm not having to be very forceful at all--you just have to be definitive and she will go right into 1st no problem and no big clunk.

4. At stoplights if you're getting there at the point in the light change cycle where there will be a considerable wait, AND of course you're happy the folks on your 6 have stopped, kill the engine w/ the kill switch, and leave it in 1st with the ignition still on--won't hurt a thing to leave the ignition on. Just start up in 1st and take off when it's time. Otherwise, just keep the clutch pulled. If it's like my '16 RT clutch pull force is very friendly to my 63y/o diabetic hands so it's no big deal. I can handle stop and go traffic with this approach no problem, no clunking. I know the old car clutch training days told me I wasn't supposed to keep the clutch pedal depressed else risk premature wear of the throw-out bearing. I could be wrong but my guess is the wet-clutch bearing may well be bathed on oil so you shouldn't but hurting a thing with this unless perhaps all you do is putt putt along in bumper to bumper traffic all day.

Anyway, give it a little time it's really a non-issue once you learn to work with its less than ideal behaviors.

And two more things I just remembered: it's gets better with age--the shifting behavior in the lower gears. Doesn't go away the issues we're talking about, but I noticed about about 7500 miles or so everything just got smoother/quieter/better. I'm sure part of that is I've gotten better, but I think the bike has too. Your GS is not even broken in yet.

The other thing is to fill the engine oil to no higher than the MIDDLE of the viewing window, not just under the top of the Max/Min circle. This may be part internet lore but there have been publications on this topic, like this:

The Summer 2015 edition of BMW Motorcycle Magazine included results of their long-term test of the 2013 R1200GS, which includes BMW's first water-boxer engine.

This is what the article said about clunky shifting:

Noisy Gear Changes: "...what hasn't been eradicated in series production yet is the poor separation of the clutch. A disc set that turns in motor oil (wet clutch) is still relatively new to BMW even after 90 years of boxer engines, and it feels that way. Gear changes in the lower three gears are hard and correspondingly noisy. On the other hand, gear changes from fourth to sixth are just great. BMW recommends changing the clutch pressure pin, which our test bike has had done. The poor clutch separation behavior is improved, however, by lowering the oil level. The new spec has made its rounds to dealerships everywhere with the amount of oil during a change now 3.8 liters instead of four -- to the middle of the sight glass."​

The BMW Advantec Ultimate seems to be as good as any oil for making the bike do the best it can w/ regard to shifting, though the oil geeks will argue full PAO oils may do better as far as shifting goes, like Liqui Moly 5W40 for motorcycles that adhere to the same classifications for wet clutch bikes. I haven't tried it myself, but am thinking about it next change. I have almost 15K miles now on the bike and it never ceases to amaze me with w/ an incredible machine it truly is.

 

[Omega Man]

^^^Nice^^^
OM

 

[blueheeler]

Clutch replacement

NCP,
Thank you for a well-written approach to the clunky trans. I have been experiencing the same thing and I also attribute some of the balkiness to my ability. I have been away from motorcycles for over 20 years and like you, I am continually amazed at this motorcycle. What a way to stage a come-back..... You are ahead of me on miles, so it is good to know I have better days to look forward to.
Thanks again.

 

[tonyr]

Hi Tony,

Yes, this is BMW's wet-clutch implementation for water boxers which is being revised for 2017 w/ the addition of a 'judder damper', which I take to mean something to soften the clunk--it's name to me implies a band-aid of sorts............

Thanks ncpbmw1953. Appreciate the detailed reply. Most of the suggestions I'm already doing but the ones I'm not I'll take up.

I guess I was really looking to see if any thing actually resolves the issue as opposed to workarounds. Hence the initial question. Also, not all of the bikes suffer with it.

Thx again for your reply,
T

 

[ncpbmw1953]

Thanks ncpbmw1953. Also, not all of the bikes suffer with it.

Thx again for your reply,
T

You're welcome Tony, but I have to ask, where did you learn not all of the bikes, presumably you're saying waterboxers, suffer with it? I've not heard one tale of no N to 1st clunk at a standstill when the bike's at all warmed up. If so, we need to find and clone that waterboxer's DNA and do some gene splicing!

I think it's fathomable that over time, maybe lots of miles, this may settle out...probably right about the time you need a clutch replacement

 

[tonyr]

You're welcome Tony, but I have to ask, where did you learn not all of the bikes, presumably you're saying waterboxers, suffer with it? I've not heard one tale of no N to 1st clunk at a standstill when the bike's at all warmed up. If so, we need to find and clone that waterboxer's DNA and do some gene splicing! I think it's fathomable that over time, maybe lots of miles, this may settle out...probably right about the time you need a clutch replacement

I rented one last year in the Canadian Rockies and had no issues - Paradise I've also watched a lot of YouTube videos to compare where waterboxes select 1st and move away. While I can't judge on the sound given the mic is probably in the helmet none jump like mine does. I was going to post a video here for a comparison but I'm really apprehensive to record the video with one hand while selecting 1st without being able to hold a brake at the same time.

Just had the 10,000 service (early) and the clutch was adjusted. The bite point is now at the end of the lever travel - as you let out, which would give maximum disengagement of the clutch plates.

PS, I' not expecting no issues after all I've come from a 2005 GS . Just shocked how extreme it is. I find it hard to believe anyone would buy the bike this way if it was new.
Phenomenal bike, don't get me wrong. Just the clutch drag is very bad.

 

[Rinty]

My understanding is that BMW has always had their gearboxes engineered so that there is a pronounced clunk going into first. Particularly, I remember the rider feedback on the first series of Oilers, with the new Getrag box.

 

[alancoles]

...a significant clunk when going into first from neutral. So significant, that the bike will jump slightly and I have to keep the brake applied...After the bike has been in a lot of traffic finding neutral gets increasingly difficult...

Unfortunately, finding neutral is harder on my 2014 RTW than on my 2004 RT, and my '86 R80 and '76 R90S. Not difficult to do outside of having to be very slow and precise and even then sometimes taking 2-3 attempts. Not what I consider appropriate, but hey, BMW trannies have always been tough and fairly reliable but sub-par on an operator satisfaction / ease-of-use scale.

I rented one last year in the Canadian Rockies and had no issues - Paradise I've also watched a lot of YouTube videos to compare where waterboxes select 1st and move away. While I can't judge on the sound given the mic is probably in the helmet none jump like mine does. I was going to post a video here for a comparison but I'm really apprehensive to record the video with one hand while selecting 1st without being able to hold a brake at the same time...

Regarding the jump, this is where I think there may well be an issue that is of more concern to me and could be contributing to the other issues. Most bikes will "jump" slightly when 1st gear is engaged, but not to the point of requiring the brake to be applied. My RTW, like my 1150RT before it and my other bikes all have varying degrees of this but none, including the RTW require me to apply the brakes. My body weight is sufficient to hold it where it is. ;-)

The dealer has stated that this is normal, so I would go back to the dealer and ask to try all their Wetheads to verify this. No need to put any miles on them or even feet, no need to take them out of the showroom, simply put them in neutral, start them pull in the clutch, engage 1st gear and shut it off. You'll soon be able to identify if it is normal or not.

Regarding doing the video, if it isn't convenient to get a friend to hold the brake or better yet shoot the video, than you can always use a clamp, rope, or bungie cord to apply the front brake prior to shooting to leave one hand free.

...Just had the 10,000 service (early) and the clutch was adjusted. The bite point is now at the end of the lever travel - as you let out, which would give maximum disengagement of the clutch plates...

To my untrained brain, that would suggest that there is an issue with the clutch "catching" or having a plate issue versus an engagement issue. What I mean is that if you are that far out (adjusted to the end point) and it is still jumping than on the my Nortons I'd be looking at the stack-height of the plates, a warped, plate, or a plate hanging up in the clutch basket. Just my novice 2 cents, but food for thought.