2003 R1150RT No start - advice needed

[allrt]

Drove my sweet running 2003 R1150 RT (21k miles, single spark) into the shop, replaced a rusted out muffler. Used same 02 sensor. Tried to start er up, no joy. Kickstand switch works fine. Checked spark by grounding plugs against cylinder head, yes. Spark was really strong. The spark seemed to skip a beat occasionally. pulled injectors and checked Fuel injector spray pattern, good spray pattern while cranking over. Checked each fuse individually. Checked relays by swapping out the horn relay, all good. About 1 volt drop at the battery while cranking. Hooked up the GS911 and ran the HES test, fine. No fault codes stored. Checked pump by jumpering from battery, no prob. Pulled tank and dumped the gas, added 2 gallons of fresh, no good. Thinking the bike may have been immobilized by the HES test, I pulled the Motronic fuse, waited an hour, no start.

A few other observations: Strong smell of gas getting blown out exhaust. Starting hums and clunks sound normal. Probably 50 attempts to start, nada.

Could the dreaded HES problem be a possible culprit? This same no start problem happened about a month ago while I was doing a TBS, but after about 10 attempts she lit up. I had a gut feeling at the time that this issue was not resolved. The HES is about the only thing I havent really chased yet, thinking it was something more simple and straightforward.

Please Mr. Wizard, help!

 

[roger 04 rt]

You seem like you've tried the obvious things. Are all the throttle cables seated correctly?

The next thing I'd do is make the return fuel flow test I've described in another thread, which is to disconnect the upper QD, hold in the plunger on the fuel pressure regulator side on the return line, turn on the key, and make sure fuel squirts out (into a container).

 

[rxcrider]

It could be as simple as really stale fuel. I've seen fuel stored for only a few months that I couldn't light with a torch. How much fuel is in your tank? When did you fill it? Stabilizer? Temperature where you are working on the bike?

EDIT - Disregard this post - Failed to read the first line about how you drove the bike into the shop.

 

[allrt]

I did the fuel flow test and made a huge mess. That fuel pump rocks!

I did get it to fire about 10 revolutions, all kinds of stuff blew out of the muffler, oil, raw gas, packing pellets, and finally one good sized boom that scared the neighbors kid. After that, no more excitement, flat battery.

I.called touring sport in Greenville and they suspect it's the 3 week old battery I picked up locally. Gonna head to town tomorrow and pick up an Odyssey to see if any improvement.

 

[rxcrider]

Packing pellets? That can make all sorts of problems if it means a rodent has set up house in your exhaust system. Depending on when that happened, your synch may be in question as well.


EDIT - I'm doing a really poor job of reading / remembering the first post here - so you just changed out the muffler - that means your synch was done on the original muffler which had a hole in it. (presumably at the outlet where they all like to rot out.) That means your synch should be fine, assuming it ran well after you did it.

 

[69ZEFF65]

Get ready for a compression check!

I hope I'm wrong but if a new battery doesn't get it fired up you should go old-school on it and check the compression. If you have raw gas in the exhaust (seriously) that means you have an exhaust valve stuck open or burnt off, the no start with fire and fuel is another sign that there might be some compression missing. A low mileage 2 valve is a prime candidate for carbon build up that breaks away and sticks a valve open or causes it to loose a chunk due to overheating it in one spot. I hope I am wrong on this!!!

 

[henzilla]

Seems the culprit could be a clogged exhaust

Kind of like jamming a potato in the tailpipe. Remove muffler and see if it is clear. Try starting with it off, you may be pleasantly surprised.
Also check air snorkle/airbox for more nesting junk.

 

[rxcrider]

I'm with Steve on this one. What do you know about the muffler you installed? I'm assuming it is the factory piece with the integral catalyst box. Correct to assume it is a used muffler which you bought? Was it stored somewhere by you or the seller such that it might have a rodent nest in it? Did the bike it came off of have an issue such that the cat may be clogged?

 

[allrt]

Update- she finally started up after a new battery, but only after removing plugs, throttle bodies, and blowing out the cylinders with compressed air. It does appear that compression is not right, headed to NAPA to rent a gauge and do the test.

The muffler is a stocker I bought off EBay some time back. I ran a camera up the tailpipe and couldn't see any more unwelcome stuff after she peppered the garage door yesterday.

Just finished compression test, 150, 152 psi with engine hot. Is that within range of normal?

 

[PGlaves]

Just finished compression test, 150, 152 psi with engine hot. Is that within range of normal?

Pretty close. Certainly not low enough to prevent starting and normal running. Last time I had a valve issue the reading was 8 psi.

 

[rxcrider]

The muffler is a stocker I bought off EBay some time back. I ran a camera up the tailpipe and couldn't see any more unwelcome stuff after she peppered the garage door yesterday.

You can't get too far with a scope from the rear and I'd be more concerned about what might be sitting in or in front of the cat. I'd take a look at the muffler you removed and see if you can see enough with the scope from the inlet side to make pulling the ebay unit back off your bike for a look down its throat worth while.

 

[henzilla]

I'm still in the camp that the exhaust was plugged and you were pumping fuel into the plugged system. It backfired and stumbled , blowing the muffler side blockage out.

You may want to pull the whole system back off as the critters could have entered both sides and as mentioned, something still restricting flow from headers to cat. I poured a big pile of acorns out of one I left on the shop floor last year.

yeah, as Paul mentions a big difference on compression check if something amiss.

 

[gsaddict]

Drove my sweet running 2003 R1150 RT (21k miles, single spark) into the shop, replaced a rusted out muffler. Used same 02 sensor. Tried to start er up, no joy. Kickstand switch works fine. Checked spark by grounding plugs against cylinder head, yes. Spark was really strong. The spark seemed to skip a beat occasionally. pulled injectors and checked Fuel injector spray pattern, good spray pattern while cranking over. Checked each fuse individually. Checked relays by swapping out the horn relay, all good. About 1 volt drop at the battery while cranking. Hooked up the GS911 and ran the HES test, fine. No fault codes stored. Checked pump by jumpering from battery, no prob. Pulled tank and dumped the gas, added 2 gallons of fresh, no good. Thinking the bike may have been immobilized by the HES test, I pulled the Motronic fuse, waited an hour, no start.

A few other observations: Strong smell of gas getting blown out exhaust. Starting hums and clunks sound normal. Probably 50 attempts to start, nada.

Could the dreaded HES problem be a possible culprit? This same no start problem happened about a month ago while I was doing a TBS, but after about 10 attempts she lit up. I had a gut feeling at the time that this issue was not resolved. The HES is about the only thing I havent really chased yet, thinking it was something more simple and straightforward.

Please Mr. Wizard, help!

You say "good spray" when cranking over.....
At idle there should little puffs, definitely not a spray.
You may be getting to much fuel especially since you smell it.
Can you post a short vid of the injectors firing?
I solved a similar one a few years ago where the low side of the injector wire was pinched to chassis ground.
BTW FYI both injectors are wired in parallel.

 

[motorrod]

RT no start

I wouldn't over-think it. It could be flooded. I've had that happen on my 2-spark, especially if it cranks a bit slow when cold. Hold the throttle in wide open - ALL the way open, and crank till it starts. There is a crank fuel cutoff at WOT in crank mode - normally called 'clear flood' mode. Might help. Flooding will also cause low compression as it washes the cylinder walls of sealing oil. If it cranks and feels like the plugs are out, and you smell gas, I'd bet on a flooded condition. If you have a spare set of plugs, install them and see what happens. It its a no go, try it with the exhaust off.

 

[allrt]

Finally got er going again. Thanks to all the advice which I carefully considered. I had to:

buy a new battery (Odyssey this time)

emptied fuel tank, started over.

changed plugs, right plug would not fire, left plug was intermittent,


But now, the surging is back, especially 3rd gear, 3000 RPM.

GS11 says O2 sensor is randomly grounding itself. Anyone seen that code before? That's a new one for me.

 

[pauls1150]

O2 sensors can (and do) fail, but your mileage makes that premature. Considering that you replaced the muffler, look very closely at all of the wiring to the sensor: there may be a squashed, burned, or crimped point of damage, especially at a tie to the frame or a harness clip. It's also possible that the sensor was damaged during the swap to the replacement system; and they are sensitive to thread sealants. There was also a "campaign" to re-route the O2 subharness further away from the ignition wiring behind/inboard of the throttle body, to reduce stray electrical (inductive) pickup, which may cause misfiring.

When you crank the engine, does the tach jump around (instead of indicating actual RPM)? If so, that's a sure sign of the HES (or more likely, its local harness) being faulty. (But I thought that by 2003, they had this upgraded already so it shouldn't fail?)

Also be aware that the "stick" ignition coils are common failure points; I think they're on their third iteration of "upgrade".

 

[roger 04 rt]

Finally got er going again. Thanks to all the advice which I carefully considered. I had to:

buy a new battery (Odyssey this time)

emptied fuel tank, started over.

changed plugs, right plug would not fire, left plug was intermittent,


But now, the surging is back, especially 3rd gear, 3000 RPM.

GS11 says O2 sensor is randomly grounding itself. Anyone seen that code before? That's a new one for me.

I have seen that code. There are a couple possibilities:

1) There is something wrong with the O2 sensor wiring, or the O2 sensor itself. If the sensor is shorted somehow, the GS-911 will pick up that code. This is possible but not likely.

2) For some reason, and there can be a few, your engine is running lean no matter what the Motronic tells it to do. This keeps the O2 sensor output ON but at a low voltage and the Motronic says the sensor is grounded. A fuel filter restriction, an in-tank fuel line leak or a fuel pump problem can cause this. I have also seen it occur with a badly adjusted TPS.

The best thing to do is let your bike get cold overnight, connect the GS-911 before starting and set up logging to a CSV file. Then start the bike, let it idle for 4-5 minutes, stop the logging and shut down the bike. Later look through the log and see what it is doing.

During the logging time you can also have the GS-911 show a plot of the O2 sensor. The voltage should be around 850 mV on a cold start and pretty much stay there until the engine oil temp reaches 140F (60C). Then the voltage should start varying between about 100 mV and about 700 mV.

 

[allrt]

OK, thanks. I got the laptop hooked up to the GS911 and will give it a go.

 

[allrt]

Well, I took a chance and bought an generic 02 sensor from beemerboneyard. Installed it and took the bike out for 100 mile toot. The GS911 reported no errors. The bike is now running pretty well, so I'm gonna ride the heck out of it and thanks, by the way, to all who helped me get through this and maintain sanity. I had no clue where to start when the starting problem began, and the ideas tossed out really helped.

 

[omega man]

Nice to hear the results
OM