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Are rider skills becoming obsolete?

mika said:
Tha sounds like a good starting point for an interesting article. :lurk
Click to expand...

It was a privilege Sunday to ride the GSX-R1000 commemorative bike that Suzuki Motor Corp. brought, on one of my escorting demo runs. It had been ridden on an 'in memory lap' only a few hours before by Roger Hayden, brother to Nicky, who recently perished.

Powerful sport bike for sure, though still not as 'wickedly fast' as the multiple runs I made on the Hayabusa (NO - I did not flirt with it's top speed of 194 mph!). Too bad there is not a '1300+ class' for sport bike racing. :dance

All in all, a most interesting weekend. :thumb

Now I'm back to teaching a Basic Rider Course this week on Yamaha Star 250,s. TW200's and XLT's. It's that time of year when I seem to be spending every day of my life on two wheels.
 
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I've taught several IRT's (Intermediate Rider Training) where supposedly the students have experience and are just testing for their endorsement. Many many times I have seen these riders have thought their skills were much better, until they come to Ex. 10 U-turns or even the offset weaves of the very first Ex. 6 on the other side of the range. We've had to dismiss quite a few where they couldn't even do their basic skills. Any fool can ride fast.... slow them down to 3-5mph and see where the real fun begins!!
 
crna59 said:
I've taught several IRT's (Intermediate Rider Training) where supposedly the students have experience and are just testing for their endorsement. Many many times I have seen these riders have thought their skills were much better, until they come to Ex. 10 U-turns or even the offset weaves of the very first Ex. 6 on the other side of the range. We've had to dismiss quite a few where they couldn't even do their basic skills. Any fool can ride fast.... slow them down to 3-5mph and see where the real fun begins!!
Click to expand...

Agreed. Russians teach polar bears to ride motorcycles in circles at 40 mph. Anyone can ride a bike fast.

Ride a motorcycle slowly with precision - there lies some skill! :thumb
 
+1

I am not a certified instructor. I do have family and friends that I have mentored over the years. I periodically take MSF classes to refresh and keep up my skills. Unfortunately it is internalized information and the format and strategy of these classes is quickly forgotten when I leave school.

How do we become better prepared to mentor people?
Where should we start?
What skills should we focus on first and build on once they begin to be mastered?
I fly by the seat of my pants when I mentor. It is based on the person I am working with and the idea that we start slow and work out. Does information for mentors to work with exist?
 
mika said:
+1
How do we become better prepared to mentor people?
Where should we start?
What skills should we focus on first and build on once they begin to be mastered?
I fly by the seat of my pants when I mentor. It is based on the person I am working with and the idea that we start slow and work out. Does information for mentors to work with exist?
Click to expand...

If you have taken the BRC, then you know what is required. What were your weaknesses? Mostly what I see from students who have or have not had experience is some of their basic skills.

1. Turn your head where you WANT to go.... not WHERE you are going! Look farther and farther ahead..
2. Hands off the front brake unless you are coming to a stop.
3. Modulate your speed with the clutch, not the throttle. The throttle is just a noise maker
4. Relax!

I practice things all the time. I find an empty parking lot to practice my emergency braking.

Find an empty parking lot with a light pole in the middle. Tie a piece of "Caution Tape" at eye level. Practice circling around the pole staring at the tape to train your head to stay turned.

I use stop 'n go traffic to practice how slow I can go without putting my feet down.

In my neighborhood, there are manhole covers in the road. I practice to see how close I can get to them before swerving to miss them.

There are lots of little things/tools you can work with and do to mentor folks. Start with the basics. Keep both feet on the ground when starting out or even a couple of steps before putting feet on pegs. NEVER have your handlebars turned when coming to a stop....... Things like that.

Good-luck!!
 
my nickname is Jimbob, and I don't work for peanuts!:)
I've been a MSF instructor for about 10 yrs, and a Total Control instructor for part of that time. I've taken the German Basic Rider Course, and other safety training, including training at the Sachsenring in 'old. east germany, Assen, Hockenheim, as well as Keith Code's Superbike school at Laguna Seca.

While putting some miles on my newly renovated 01 Aprilia RSVR, I'm constantly amazed at how capable this motorcycle is. Thru regular training, advanced training, track training, and peer counselling I have honed my skills so that I can actively push this bike up towards its limits.

Does this track-laser combined with my years of training and teaching make me a safer rider?

Doesn't matter. Cars still pull out in front of me(the bike is bright yellow, btw) I see drivers in front of me on their dumbphones oblivious to the green light waiting for them to look up, and just, go...

But here's the rub. All that training, and the smallest % of rider accident(only 3% are struck from the rear) almost killed me a few years ago.
one shattered vertebra, fusion surgery, and a life of hellish pain still hasn't stopped me from riding, teaching, racing, and just generally being an idiot on occasion.

Some can ride, some can't, and education will help the group in the middle.
I was king for a day, it would be mandatory training before licensing with regular evaluation during the life of the rider.

I know this goes against those American rights and freedoms, but I've also stood beside hospital beds from those that didn't pass the Road eval..

Let's be safe out there..
 
crna59 said:
If you have taken the BRC, ...

Good-luck!!
Click to expand...

Yes I have, and thank you for the reply. The post was more rhetorical than anything and your response begins to develop what I was getting at. As riders, I suspect many of the BMW MOA members have a passable set of riding skills. We do not have a good set of skills in helping people that look to us for help in riding. How do we develop the appropriate vocabulary, teaching tools and ____ to help grow safe riders? Again this is more of a rhetorical post that looking for an immediate answer.
 
greenwald said:
I'm currently immersed in a similar wobble-fest.

I'm under contract by Suzuki for 3 days this weekend to escort their demo riders every half-hour at the Super Bike event at Road America.

Bad news is that riding skills among endorsed motorcyclists are at best, discouraging. Have already had bikes going over curbs, thru a ditch and two near-collisions.

The good news (for me) is I spent time yesterday on a M109, a V-Strom 1000, a Boulevard 50T, 2 sport bikes and even a Burgman 650 'Executive'. I choose from 20 different models for each ride.

This morning, I'll start off with the Hyabausa. :thumb
Click to expand...

Well Kevin I probably walked by you 10 times! Wish I had known you were there! Paul & I would have bought your dinner. :wave
 
Last edited:
Basic class with my wife

A number of year back my wife decided she wanted to learn to ride. She had gone on several bike trips as a passenger with me. She wanted to know the basics in case something happened to me on a trip. I had been riding bikes for over 30 years at that point but took the class with her to support her. I had never taken a class. I learned a lot from other riders over the years. I found out that I had several bad habits that the instructor pointed out. Looking were you want to be and the bike will follow. I am glade I took the class and it encouraged me to read up on riding skills. Although half the class dropped out at noon the first day my wife stuck with it. She passed the class and got her license.
After 40 years of riding I wrecked my bike for the first time on the street a few weeks ago. It was my fault because I was not being fully aware of what was going on in front of me in time or I could have avoided it. Once I heal up from this I am going to search out some type of class to sharpen my skills. FYI: I broke a few ribs and my shoulder will need some time in rehab. Without the antilock breaks, a good armored jacket, helmet and gloves it would have been worse.
 
52220 said:
A number of year back my wife decided she wanted to learn to ride. She had gone on several bike trips as a passenger with me. She wanted to know the basics in case something happened to me on a trip. I had been riding bikes for over 30 years at that point but took the class with her to support her. I had never taken a class. I learned a lot from other riders over the years. I found out that I had several bad habits that the instructor pointed out. Looking were you want to be and the bike will follow. I am glade I took the class and it encouraged me to read up on riding skills. Although half the class dropped out at noon the first day my wife stuck with it. She passed the class and got her license.
After 40 years of riding I wrecked my bike for the first time on the street a few weeks ago. It was my fault because I was not being fully aware of what was going on in front of me in time or I could have avoided it. Once I heal up from this I am going to search out some type of class to sharpen my skills. FYI: I broke a few ribs and my shoulder will need some time in rehab. Without the antilock breaks, a good armored jacket, helmet and gloves it would have been worse.
Click to expand...

Hope you heal fast and well. Glad you had appropriate gear on - always mitigates the severity of injury!

By all means, seek out additional training opportunities - always something new to consider or strengthen.

All riders need to appreciate that good riding skills are a lifelong pursuit. No rider (including instructors!) ever reaches some 'maximum level' where no more learning is necessary. :thumb
 
shortythorne said:
Well Kevin I probably walked by you 10 times! Wish I had known you were there! Paul & I would have bought your dinner. :wave
Click to expand...

Shucks! I would have let you! :dance

It would have been very interesting dinner conversation, I'm sure.

Hope you two had a good time at the event! :thumb
 
DavidMTX said:
A number of year back my wife decided she wanted to learn to ride. She had gone on several bike trips as a passenger with me. She wanted to know the basics in case something happened to me on a trip. I had been riding bikes for over 30 years at that point but took the class with her to support her. I had never taken a class. I learned a lot from other riders over the years. I found out that I had several bad habits that the instructor pointed out. Looking were you want to be and the bike will follow. I am glade I took the class and it encouraged me to read up on riding skills. Although half the class dropped out at noon the first day my wife stuck with it. She passed the class and got her license.
After 40 years of riding I wrecked my bike for the first time on the street a few weeks ago. It was my fault because I was not being fully aware of what was going on in front of me in time or I could have avoided it. Once I heal up from this I am going to search out some type of class to sharpen my skills. FYI: I broke a few ribs and my shoulder will need some time in rehab. Without the antilock breaks, a good armored jacket, helmet and gloves it would have been worse.
Click to expand...

40y and no wrecks is a decent record so you must have done a whole lot of things right, and had some luck as well. My wife decided to take the MSF course last fall, passed and got her license and we bought her a new Honda CB500X at her tender age of 65 y/o. After 1300 miles she's decided it's not for her: the risk is simply not worth the reward for her, so up for sale it goes real soon. I think it's a wise move for her as I don't see the level of commitment to improvement in her riding abilities which are real green. Someone will get a nice discount on an almost new bike but good for her for trying.

My brother had some good wisdom on crashing bikes: look out for our universal tendency to take shortcuts w/ being hyper vigilant, making assumptions that are unwarranted, and otherwise allowing ourselves to not stay fully in the moment and anticipating everything. I think it's a valid point. To the extent you're fully aware and smart the odds of a crash aren't very high, but that changes instantly when you check out attention-wise. My closest call in traffic was indeed that sort of thing but I had enough luck and a little skill to avoid getting crunched. Best wishes on quickly healing ribs I know they can be very painful.
 
crna59 said:
If you have taken the BRC, then you know what is required. What were your weaknesses? Mostly what I see from students who have or have not had experience is some of their basic skills.

1. Turn your head where you WANT to go.... not WHERE you are going! Look farther and farther ahead..
2. Hands off the front brake unless you are coming to a stop.
3. Modulate your speed with the clutch, not the throttle. The throttle is just a noise maker
4. Relax!

I practice things all the time. I find an empty parking lot to practice my emergency braking.

Find an empty parking lot with a light pole in the middle. Tie a piece of "Caution Tape" at eye level. Practice circling around the pole staring at the tape to train your head to stay turned.

I use stop 'n go traffic to practice how slow I can go without putting my feet down.

In my neighborhood, there are manhole covers in the road. I practice to see how close I can get to them before swerving to miss them.

There are lots of little things/tools you can work with and do to mentor folks. Start with the basics. Keep both feet on the ground when starting out or even a couple of steps before putting feet on pegs. NEVER have your handlebars turned when coming to a stop....... Things like that.

Good-luck!!
Click to expand...

Super-good advice! :thumb
 
jimbobvfr said:
my nickname is Jimbob, and I don't work for peanuts!:)
I've been a MSF instructor for about 10 yrs, and a Total Control instructor for part of that time. I've taken the German Basic Rider Course, and other safety training, including training at the Sachsenring in 'old. east germany, Assen, Hockenheim, as well as Keith Code's Superbike school at Laguna Seca.

While putting some miles on my newly renovated 01 Aprilia RSVR, I'm constantly amazed at how capable this motorcycle is. Thru regular training, advanced training, track training, and peer counselling I have honed my skills so that I can actively push this bike up towards its limits.

Does this track-laser combined with my years of training and teaching make me a safer rider?

Doesn't matter. Cars still pull out in front of me(the bike is bright yellow, btw) I see drivers in front of me on their dumbphones oblivious to the green light waiting for them to look up, and just, go...

But here's the rub. All that training, and the smallest % of rider accident(only 3% are struck from the rear) almost killed me a few years ago.
one shattered vertebra, fusion surgery, and a life of hellish pain still hasn't stopped me from riding, teaching, racing, and just generally being an idiot on occasion.

Some can ride, some can't, and education will help the group in the middle.
I was king for a day, it would be mandatory training before licensing with regular evaluation during the life of the rider.

I know this goes against those American rights and freedoms, but I've also stood beside hospital beds from those that didn't pass the Road eval..

Let's be safe out there..
Click to expand...

+1 ! :thumb
 
What I would like to have is a vehicle encroachment warning system which I see has a recent patent here:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2015/0228066.html

This is an example of a technology that would translate into better outcomes if done well, and it doesn't sound particularly technically difficult to do. I make it a habit to try to glance rearward in mirrors every 5-10 seconds but you know how fast road sharks appears on your 6 it would be cool to have an alert based on approach speed etc.
 
Prove you can ride two wheels

My 74-year old buddy wants to buy my '74 R90/6. I told him if he can ride my 21-speed Waterford bicycle through sand, gravel, mud and make a 4-foot diameter circle with feet clamped to the pedals and take a MSF course the bike is his.

Bob
 
DUI in self riding motorcyles

6322 said:
So if someone gets pulled over in one of these vehicles or on the self driving motorcycle, for suspected DUI, who gets the sobriety test, the operator or the vehicle?
Click to expand...

can't get a ticket for "operating a vehicle while impaired" if the vehicle is operating autonomously.

Government officials probably haven't figured out the revenue loss with that one.
 
To answer the OP's question. No not ever. The amount of idiots on the roads isn't decreasing anytime soon unfortunately.
I wish, wishful thinking right?, that it was harder to get a drivers license too. It seems that the DMV's are running 'blue light specials' all the time..:banghead
 
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