oil type

t6pilot said:

...I disagree on 15000 oil changes on vehicles, if you plan on keeping more frequent changes should be done...

Click to expand...

Jim, I'm more comfortable with more frequent changes as well, but it really does depend on the vehicle, application and operating environment. I think the best frequency is the one that the owner is most comfortable with as long as it is within the manufacturer's specs. That being said, BMW and others have been pushing change-intervals pretty darn far in what I suspect is more of a desire to suggest that the total cost of ownership is lower than doing more frequent changes.

I'm just coming up to the 5,000 mile mark on my RTW which means that the oil is now 4,400 miles old (after the 600 mile running-in check oil-change). I've got a ton of non-motorcycle travel scheduled between now and the end of riding season here so I suspect that I'll only have around 6,000 miles on the bike before doing the fall lay-up oil-change (about the same as your intended schedule). My plan is to send a sample of the old oil for analysis to see two things:

1 - If the acid build-up is sufficient to warrant continuing with the recommended annual oil-change frequency. I don't like leaving old oil in an engine over the winter due to the acids.
2 - Overall condition of the oil for doing it's job. Part of the analysis is that it will come back with a suggested change interval.

I'll try to remember to report back hear those finding in late October / November.

t6pilot said:

...Shop that worked on my Mini Cooper frowned on extended oil changes especially with a turbo engine...

Click to expand...

Most cars, SUVs and trucks put very little load on a fully-synthetic oil, but that changes with forced-induction and motorcycles, especially wet-clutch bikes. The biggest issue with fully-synthetic oil isn't the oil going bad it is a) filtration and b) degradation of the additive package. Some vehicles will allow a filter change without having to change the oil which I like as I am more worried about the filtering ability after a long duration than the life-span of a fully-synthetic oil. The analysis will identify if the filtering, additives and oil are still okay.

Omega Man said:

FWIW, IMO, turbo engines need a minute to "spool" down before the engine shuts off and the oil stops pumping.
Never had a gas turbo, maybe that "problem" has been addressed in the newer gas models where perhaps a driver came off a "normally aspirated" engine.
Those tiny needle bearings are sensitive.
OM

Click to expand...

The newer ones (for some time now) are built with water-cooling for the turbo bearings that will continue to do it's job after the engine is turned off. The old ones would fry the bearings and coke-up the oil-lines if one didn't adhere to rule of letting the engine idle for a short while before shutting it off. There used to be an aftermarket "Turbo-timer" that you could buy and install that would keep the engine running for say 1 minute after you turned off the ignition. Since the manufacturers wised up the need for those devises has dried up.

AlanColes said:

That being said, BMW and others have been pushing change-intervals pretty darn far in what I suspect is more of a desire to suggest that the total cost of ownership is lower than doing more frequent changes.

Click to expand...

The head engineer in the one of the sections in our test facility ran the oil in his BMW 330 Ci for 20K to 22K kilometer intervals. Each time he took a sample of oil up to the lubricants lab and it checked out OK.

He bought that car new in 2000 and still drives it today. The last I heard many years ago, he had about 300K kms on it.

GlobalRider said:

The head engineer in the one of the sections in our test facility ran the oil in his BMW 330 Ci for 20K to 22K kilometer intervals. Each time he took a sample of oil up to the lubricants lab and it checked out OK.

He bought that car new in 2000 and still drives it today. The last I heard many years ago, he had about 300K kms on it.

Click to expand...

I can't recall exactly, but think it was Amsoil that ran an engine for 250,000 miles with one of their bypass filters (captures particles down to 2 microns) and only changed the filters with no oil change, just top ups during the filter change and had an independent lab like Blackstone analyze the oil and it came back fine. They did a tear-down of the engine and it showed no abnormal wear. Pretty darn impressive. I wouldn't be comfortable stretching things out that far but but it does give food for thought.

The beauty of the 330 CI (M54 motor), is that like it's predecessors the oil filter is an element filter (like the airhead bikes) and is on the top of the engine inside a filter housing so it is very easy to just replace the filter on those motors with only needing about a 1/4 L of make-up oil. A fellow I used to compete against had a 330 CI that for a period held the world record for the 1/4 mile. It was truly amazing the engineering that went into that car. Unfortunately, a fuel leak at the track resulted in a fire that completely destroyed the car and burned him badly even through his Nomex suit.

AlanColes said:

I can't recall exactly, but think it was Amsoil that ran an engine for 250,000 miles with one of their bypass filters (captures particles down to 2 microns) and only changed the filters with no oil change, just top ups during the filter change and had an independent lab like Blackstone analyze the oil and it came back fine. They did a tear-down of the engine and it showed no abnormal wear. Pretty darn impressive. I wouldn't be comfortable stretching things out that far but but it does give food for thought.

Click to expand...

Mobil 1 did a similar test. Mind you, running continuously means the engine does not go through heat cycles and cold starts. But cool all the same. I am familiar with the really excellent easy to get to oil filter location on my BMW E36, right up front at the valve cover. In comparison, the two oil filters on my Porsche 993 are a pain to get to, but the driving experience offsets all that.

Million Miles

Imagine Driving Your Car For One Million Miles. It Would Take Forever!

In 1990 Mobil™ conducted an extraordinary experiment with Mobil 1™ - the Million Miles Test. At Mobil's research center in the United States, a new BMW 325i, with a 2.5ltr in line 6 cylinder engine, was filled with Mobil 1, and then run continuously day and night for the next four years - stopping only for routine maintenance and servicing.

The BMW spent four years on the treadmill, 24 hours a day, mostly at 85 miles an hour but with varied speeds - down as low as 45 miles an hour to simulate everyday driving.

After the equivalent of a million miles of hard driving, the engine was stripped and examined. What they found was astonishing: there was no sign of any significant wear. Not only was the engine still in excellent working order, most parts were still within BMW's tolerance for a new engine!


I ran Mobil 1 in my 1999 Honda from the 1st inspection for 15 years and 245,000 kilometers (low mileage since I have other vehicles), but there were zero scuff marks on the approach side of the cam lobes at 189K kilometers. The vehicle is now in the hands of a friend who needed a daily driver.

I try to avoid oil threads, but can't. It is simple. Find the specifications for your bike. Buy an oil that meets them. Change at the specified interval. Consider cost. Consider availability. Consider who you want to buy from. But adhere to the specs. I don't trust the API which has sold out to the car builders. But the JASO MA2 is still the gold standard in my opinion. Viscosity too, is critical.

This is why we should all just have our BMW dealer change the oil, BMW and our BMW dealer knows best. That's why they put the service reminder in for us, so we don't have to overthink things, the light comes on and we take it down to the dealer...

PGlaves said:

...JASO MA2 is still the gold standard in my opinion...

Click to expand...

Paul, what is your thinking on MA?

Seeing as MA2 and MA1 are simply sub-categories of MA spec, with MA2 representing the top roughly 2/3rds of the friction window of MA and MA1 representing the bottom 1/3rd. MA2 (and IIRC MA1) also places a ceiling on phosphorus to comply with the ILSAC GF-5 / API SN changes that deal with reducing emissions and prolonging catalytic converter life.

My concern has been that the newer specs (SN/MA2 vs SL/MA) seems to be mostly dealing with prolonging converter life by reducing the allowable levels of phosphorous which means increased engine wear (phosphorous and zinc are anti-wear additives that are being reduced by the new standards). Most JASO MA oils will fall within the friction parameters of MA2 (for good wet-clutch operation) but many don't meet the reduction in phosphorous requirement which trades off increased engine wear for reduced catalytic converter wear. Just as the move from API-SL to SM and now SN is virtually completely involved in reducing phosphorous, zinc, etc., levels (thereby increasing the rate of engine wear) to reduce catalytic converter wear.

I'm not sure either engine or converter wear is an issue on my bikes (I'm at the age where I likely won't wear either out), but at $1,870 the converter is less than half that of an engine overhaul.

JT_R1200S said:

This is why we should all just have our BMW dealer change the oil, BMW and our BMW dealer knows best. That's why they put the service reminder in for us, so we don't have to overthink things, the light comes on and we take it down to the dealer...

Click to expand...

I'm not sure that is what anyone else has suggested.

Certainly if we all followed the "BMW and our BMW dealer knows best" track most of us would be in trouble as it has over the years taken a vigilant BMWMOA community along with BMWRA, Airheads, etc., members to hold BMW itself and BMW dealers accountable for their mistakes and to provide a body of information that has lead to the resolution of numerous issues that the community at large fixed/corrected or provided the impetus to fix/correct not BMW or it's dealership network.

You are more than welcome to pay a 50%-100% premium for a BMW labeled oil or part that is manufactured by someone else, but it is absolutely not necessary. All one needs to do is use high-quality products that meet the specifications of their vehicle and have the work done by a competent person. Buying those products from the actual manufacturer versus their BMW labelled identical product, get you exactly the same thing.

As has been said before, we tend to put too much effort into trying to identify what is the very best when it often has no bearing on the application and any high-quality product that meets the specs will do just as well as another. Good oil changed frequently is better than great oil changed infrequently. At the end of the life-span of the average BMW motorcycle, I doubt very much that there would be any benefit noticed in an engine teardown between a bike that had run BMW oil changed on schedule at the dealership versus the equivalent Amsoil, Mobil-1, Shell, Motul, etc. that was changed by a competent owner or independent tech. There would however, be a significant difference in the TCO (total cost of ownership). I'm capable of doing that work myself and want to do it, others don't wish to do that so to each their own, but for me, I prefer to do as much work as I can on my vehicles as nobody is as concerned about my bike as I am.

Two Maintenance Items that are Clearly an over priced Scam.

OIL AND FREE Tars....

t6pilot said:

Mine was probably made in 1949
Has 5000 hours total time
With 300 since major overhaul
While production stopped from Pratt there was/is enough new old stock parts to still build engines
Good cams and cranks are getting pricy
A couple after market scource's for just about everything
Bush planes and crop dusters have kept over haulers in business as the go through a engine in one or two seasons

Click to expand...

Not to be dismissive of the piston plane engines (Lycoming is 50-miles up the road from me) or how long air-frames will last, but 1940 and 50's technology is just that. What was good for those engines isn't necessarily the proper care for a next century motorcycle engine.

GlobalRider said:

The head engineer in the one of the sections in our test facility ran the oil in his BMW 330 Ci for 20K to 22K kilometer intervals. Each time he took a sample of oil up to the lubricants lab and it checked out OK.

He bought that car new in 2000 and still drives it today. The last I heard many years ago, he had about 300K kms on it.

Click to expand...

This is when we need Rob Lentini to tell the story about ANG maintenance and how they always reused the oil in the F-whichever jet.

Yes, I've seen too many oil threads..........