gr8ridn2
Tourmeister
I bow to your superior intellect and experience. I will just keep stumbling along with the Battery Tender.
Happy Holidays
-
Welcome, Guest! We hope you enjoy the excellent technical knowledge, event information and discussions that the BMW MOA forum provides. Some forum content will be hidden from you if you remain logged out. If you want to view all content, please click the 'Log in' button above and enter your BMW MOA username and password. If you are not an MOA member, why not take the time to join the club, so you can enjoy posting on the forum, the BMW Owners News magazine, and all of the discounts and benefits the BMW MOA offers?
-
Beginning April 1st, and running through April 30th, there is a new 2024 BMW MOA Election discussion area within The Club section of the forum. Within this forum area is also a sticky post that provides the ground rules for participating in the Election forum area. Also, the candidates statements are provided. Please read before joining the conversation, because the rules are very specific to maintain civility.
The Election forum is here: Election Forum
Battery Care - Revisited Article
- Thread starter globalrider
- Start date
I bow to your superior intellect and experience. I will just keep stumbling along with the Battery Tender.
Happy Holidays
globalrider
Alps Adventurer
What type, an AGM or GEL? VRLA stands for Valve Regulated Lead Acid battery under which the AGM and GEL fall?
Each has differences in charge requirements.
I can understand that. I'm amazed that they even recommend that these days.
globalrider
Alps Adventurer
I bow to your superior intellect and experience. I will just keep stumbling along with the Battery Tender.
Happy Holidays
Yeah I know, how dare I question any company's claims or anyone for that matter.
I should just walk in a trance and believe everything that is thrown at me, be it advertized or on the net...just like the 993 undertray topic.
Oh the BT, even the wrong one, will charge your battery.
rich
#37829
It is the AGM.
Is: "sits for a month" a figure of speech in ND? It is a hard cold reality down here in KY-at least this winter!
And this: I am now afraid(having read this thread) to buy a charger or a battery! Is there a way to eliminate the need for either/both those items?
globalrider
Alps Adventurer
If it really only sits for a month and if there is no current drain and it is other wise used daily where the charging system charges up the battery, sitting a month is not an issue.
The advantages of an AGM battery are: very low self discharge when not connected, high CCA and the ability to better tolerate a deeper discharge.
As for what charger is best, one that follows the AGM voltage table in my first post in this thread. Unfortunately, we've only come across one and it is made for larger car/marine batteries and it costs more than most of us are willing to spend.
One thing is for sure, based on that table, you want one that charges at a higher voltage at cold temperatures and one that charges at a lower voltage at hot temperatures, the latter probably won't be needed as most users use their vehicles in the summer months.
I know the CTEK takes a battery to 14.7V in the "cold" mode, which is why it is connected to my car battery in my cold garage at the moment. That 14.7V could be higher (15.0 V), but they probably chose 14.7V to be on the safe side as overcharging any VRLA battery is a big no-no and shortens their life.
None of this is pulled out of a hat and is available from Battery Technical Manuals such as those put out by manufacturers; East Penn for example...and many others.
globalrider
Alps Adventurer
Hi Rin,
It was some of the numbers in the June article that caught my eye. I really feel for the author; he meant well and I always appreciate & take interest in tech articles, but accurate information is a must. As I've said for years, you need to know enough to sift through the good and bad info on the web.
That 993 undertray discussion for example is another hoot. All these experts (I should really say a few experts and a lot of followers), yet nobody with any data to support their claims. And how dare I question those experts who build race engines, etc. I wouldn't trust them to build anything for me if all they are doing is guessing without taking measurements and collecting data. If what they say is true, then how much cooler are the cylinder heads running; 5 or 50 degrees F cooler, if cooler at all? I'll know next summer. I'd laugh if they were actually running hotter with the undertray off.
I'm sure you're referring to the Rennlist, and that was an entertaining thread.
It sure was, wasn't it. Poor salesman! But then he was taken in by another salesman; the distributor. I never did get a response back from them.
Ever notice on forums how certain products are always pushed or at the very least always recommended. All you have to do is check who is advertizing in their monthly magazine. On RL you have a group of vendors and its always so entertaining to see the bow at the ankles praise they get from members.
Directly to the battery as you can see...
The other leads in the pic above, going to the battery terminals are for my "always-on" voltmeter that is inside the car.
Merry Christmas!
globalrider
Alps Adventurer
By the way Rin, if you choose to charge through the cigarette lighter, an adapter is available from CTEK through your local CTC...
globalrider
Alps Adventurer
Wait till they go on sale for $53.99. Sign up on-line at CTC and put yourself on the Sale Alert list. I bought both of mine on sale there.
Alex,
"For every 7 to 8 degrees C (12 to 14 degrees F) temperature increase above 25C (77F), battery life is cut in half."
Do you mean that the rate-of-self-discharge, or the actual life of the battery is cut in half? I'm sure everyone has elevated their batt. temp. well past 91*F (77 + 14)sitting in a running m/c on a warm day.
Also, on the amount of charge vs. full charge w/ a lessor BT vs. high tech/expensive charger: If someone gets 8 yrs. out of a batt. and it only has 50% capacity left but still starts the bike, then the cheaper "smart charger" has done it's job. Maybe the more expensive charger will have that same batt @ 75% capacity over the same time period, but who cares? If it starts, it starts. Sulfation is what kills the life/capacity of a battery. As long as it's kept over 12.3V, sulfation will not happen.
"For every 7 to 8 degrees C (12 to 14 degrees F) temperature increase above 25C (77F), battery life is cut in half."
Do you mean that the rate-of-self-discharge, or the actual life of the battery is cut in half? I'm sure everyone has elevated their batt. temp. well past 91*F (77 + 14)sitting in a running m/c on a warm day.
Also, on the amount of charge vs. full charge w/ a lessor BT vs. high tech/expensive charger: If someone gets 8 yrs. out of a batt. and it only has 50% capacity left but still starts the bike, then the cheaper "smart charger" has done it's job. Maybe the more expensive charger will have that same batt @ 75% capacity over the same time period, but who cares? If it starts, it starts. Sulfation is what kills the life/capacity of a battery. As long as it's kept over 12.3V, sulfation will not happen.
globalrider
Alps Adventurer
The actual life of the battery, all things being equal.
Depends where you live. We get summer temperatures in the 70s and max 80s. Arizona will see temperatures above 100F.
Every see a pic of the football field sized graveyards of military 6T batteries in Iraq/Afghanistan. They last a matter of months and a year at best due to the heat and overcharging.
I guess it depends how one thinks. North Americans are the greatest consumers on planet earth of just about everything; resources, energy, etc. Why do you consider 8 years out of a battery good service? Some people think they got their money's worth if their car lasts ten years. Mine is good for another 6 years and its in its 12th year right now (that a lot considering our winters).
Capacity and internal resistance are two different things. I test military 6T batteries, battery chargers and battery test equipment. The 6T AGM batteries have a capacity of 120 Ah and 1225 CCA. A tester tells me my battery is good and that its CCA is 1100 with a battery voltage of 12.74V. Yet I have a lousy 46 Ah of capacity at a 20A discharge rate when I perform that test. Oh, it'll start that big diesel engine in that military truck, just don't tell the guy in the field in Iraq he has a good battery as his electronics winds down in less than half the time during silent watch activities. For silent watch activities in the military, battery capacity is important, but not for starting of a healthy engine.
BTW, for our vehicles, all we need to do is start the engine and that requires practically nil in the scheme of capacity. Now if you want to run your radio at the campsite for a week, that is another matter.
12.3V? Thats a half charged battery!
Sorry to disagree, but sulfation happens all the time and is only minimized by having a battery fully charged. True, sulfation is the #1 killer of batteries caused by...improper charging and lack of general maintenance.
I guess I use 8 yrs. for m/c batts. because that is the longest life I've witnessed for my FWC Mareg in my K75 (28 AH - the OE 19AH went in 4 yrs). The 8 y/o still started the bike just fine, but I didn't trust it anymore for plate fatigue reasons (sudden failure while out on the road). I don't know many riders that go past 4 yrs. batt. life, so going 8 yrs. is at least doubling that (100% life increase is a good no. for me). There's also the law of diminishing return: $100 batt./8 yrs. is $12.50/yr., and if it goes 10 yrs is $10.00/yr. $2.50/yr differential isn't worth worrying about. Also, how many folks are gonna have their bikes that long (or can predict they'll have them that long)? And in another 8 yrs. down the road, there's gonna be another whiz-bang charger/maintainer/desulfator/temp compensated/made just for your type of battery gizmo. Yes, we do throw away/consume alot of stuff in NA, but for the most part LA batts are recycled (let's not get into how clean/dirty that process is).
My cars are usually sold w/ the OE batt (9 yr/117K mi.-MF ,7 yr/105K -FWC, 8 yr/64K-FWC currently), so I know they'll go a long time (I just don't keep my cars too long). I'm just unsure of these AGM's as far as life. My first experience was w/ a OE 19 AH in a 1450 cc H-D that went over 5 yrs/45K, and was sold w/ the bike. The next was a WestCo 28AH currently in the K75 which is now over 4 y/o. I guess there's not enough history on AGM's w/ whatever charger/maintainer to predict if they'll go to/over 8 yrs. in m/c applications. My BT is currently floating @ 13.5V, and bulk charge went up to 14.5 in my 40*F garage. I know crap about batteries and sulfation, so that 12.3V thing I said before came from Deltran's marketing.
Alex, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us.
My cars are usually sold w/ the OE batt (9 yr/117K mi.-MF ,7 yr/105K -FWC, 8 yr/64K-FWC currently), so I know they'll go a long time (I just don't keep my cars too long). I'm just unsure of these AGM's as far as life. My first experience was w/ a OE 19 AH in a 1450 cc H-D that went over 5 yrs/45K, and was sold w/ the bike. The next was a WestCo 28AH currently in the K75 which is now over 4 y/o. I guess there's not enough history on AGM's w/ whatever charger/maintainer to predict if they'll go to/over 8 yrs. in m/c applications. My BT is currently floating @ 13.5V, and bulk charge went up to 14.5 in my 40*F garage. I know crap about batteries and sulfation, so that 12.3V thing I said before came from Deltran's marketing.
Alex, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us.
Globalrider (aka Alex),
Thanks for your impressive contributions to the battery charger issue.
The reason for the original article is that way too many BMW riders depend on sales hype, and hardly anyone seems to actually check their chargers to see if they are anywhere near what's needed.
In my situation, I'm like many other riders, just wanting to keep the bike operational, not become a specialist. But I had a couple of battery failures that caused me to get a little smarter about what was happening.
I had hoped that I would stimulate other MOA members to also get a little smarter about maintaining batteries.
Obviously, when one generates content that gets published, there will be controversial reactions.
"Mr. Deltran" didn't offer to submit any new chargers for review. I recently obtained two Battery Tender "junior" chargers from a BMW dealer, and am in the process of trying them out. So far, I am unimpressed.
pmdave
Thanks for your impressive contributions to the battery charger issue.
The reason for the original article is that way too many BMW riders depend on sales hype, and hardly anyone seems to actually check their chargers to see if they are anywhere near what's needed.
In my situation, I'm like many other riders, just wanting to keep the bike operational, not become a specialist. But I had a couple of battery failures that caused me to get a little smarter about what was happening.
I had hoped that I would stimulate other MOA members to also get a little smarter about maintaining batteries.
Obviously, when one generates content that gets published, there will be controversial reactions.
"Mr. Deltran" didn't offer to submit any new chargers for review. I recently obtained two Battery Tender "junior" chargers from a BMW dealer, and am in the process of trying them out. So far, I am unimpressed.
pmdave
globalrider
Alps Adventurer
Not just BMW riders, but people in general depend/believe too much sales hype, the type of hype that promises you the world.
And talk about being soaked. We at defence were given a charger to try out. Prior to even running it, we opened it up to see what was inside; two modules (12 and 24V) made by a third party company that was available to anyone for other purposes. Then there was a "pulsing circuit" that was supposed to eliminate the sulphation. If you looked at the output of that circuit, all you could do was
. As for what it was supposed to do as a charger, a big thumbs down for well over $1500.Not bad for an ultra expensive "paperweight" that did no more than a $100 charger.
Trying them out or testing them?
Any battery charger will charge a battery...some/most of them even shorten their live.
globalrider
Alps Adventurer
They are an AGM.
What puzzles me on their site is the "minimum" charger current. In the case of the PC680...6 amps. Do they specify that because they want to charge the battery quickly due to the impatience of owners? Then they also state that smaller chargers can be used to top up or maintain their batteries subject to drain currents while parked.
I can tell you the charging system on any BMW motorcycle isn't nearly as up to their charging recommendations as some chargers.
For example, my GS Adventure sits at 14.2V max at cruise RPM. That is far short of the 14.7V Odyssey recommends.
Thats quite a long list of "approved chargers" on the Odyssey site. And they will all charge batteries, some better than others. I personally use the CTEK 3300 because along with 2 current modes, it also has 2 voltage modes, 14.4V and 14.7V. The ripple is low at 50 mV as well.
