Battery Charger

bikerfish1100 said:

Are you talking about BMW factory settings on the bike's charging system, or about the charger's settings?

Click to expand...

If the voltage regulator isn't compensating, yes. One way to find out is to monitor the voltage while riding in extreme heat, that if you have a voltmeter installed.

I found a voltage regulator spec sheet by Bosch and was surprised to see numbers such as -11 mV/deg C. Whether all voltage regulators temperature compensate, I don't know. BTW, I'd sooner see them compensate for battery temperature which may not be the same as the temperature the alternator is at.

bikerfish1100 said:

Heat kills batteries faster than cold does. car and bike batteries have a much shorter working life in the heat of AZ, whether they are charged or not.

Click to expand...

What I've been saying. Every 8 degree C increase cuts battery life in half.

8 degrees C is 46 F. We have a 71 F high scheduled for Friday after two days of 68 F (all with low to mid 40's in the AM).

AZ-J said:

8 degrees C is 46 F. We have a 71 F high scheduled for Friday after two days of 68 F (all with low to mid 40's in the AM).

Click to expand...

Every 8 deg C above 25 deg C.

We have that May until September. 105 F to 118 F, and rarely 120.

GlobalRider said:

Why not?

BTW, I am sure you topped it up every now and then.

Click to expand...

The reason I said motorcycles should not use flooded lead acid batteries in M/C app. these days, is because:
1. M/Cs can fall over easily, which can dump the corrosive acid to onto nice metal & painted parts. If it can fall over, it should have a spill proof design.
2. Flooded lead acid will emit corrosive gas into the battery compartment under certain charging conditions.
3. Then there's the checking-the-water-level maintenance routine. Batteries don't always have the most translucent cases, so some need to be removed just to check or replenish the water level. At the least, my K75 requires removing the tool tray, both side covers, engine ecm, ecm holder, then carefully clean the crud from around the caps before removing them, just to top-off (or check) the battery water. I THINK oilheads take even more effort.
4. I've also observed more deposits around the terminals on FLA than on AGMs.
5. There's also higher self discharge rates w/ FLA (although lead calcium may be a better FLA @ self discharge, it's not as good as an AGM).
Those are a few reasons why I made the above statement:"a type I FEEL should not be used in motorcycle applications".

31495 said:

The reason I said motorcycles should not use flooded lead acid batteries in M/C app. these days, is because:

Flooded lead acid will emit corrosive gas into the battery compartment under certain charging conditions.

Click to expand...

So can AGMs. The downside is an AGM cannot be topped up when they do gas.

31495 said:

Then there's the checking-the-water-level maintenance routine. Batteries don't always have the most translucent cases, so some need to be removed just to check or replenish the water level.

Click to expand...

You've been doing it the hard way. Sure enough they don't and I used to use a flashlight and shine it through the back side to see the level...till...

Trick. Use one of those el-cheapo plastic vernier calipers. Extend the depth rod to the max level, tape the caliper to hold the setting, insert the end till the caliper makes contact with the top of the battery case and add water till you get a drop at the tip.

AGMs have their advantages and plenty of disadvantages.

fwiw- it takes me 15 minutes+ of shedding tupperware just to get to the point where i can see my battery, let alone doing something with it. i will continue to use Odyssey or similar, and deal with replacing it every 5 or 6 years or so. have yet to discover the downsides of this battery, but have vast experience with the downsides of the older FLA design.
to each his/her own.

Hey GlobalRider:

Calling you on this one.
31495 had a good point about acid leakage. You picked on his less important #2 point and ignored his more important #1 point.

You seem to have an excellent understanding of battery life and I respect that even though I have a hard time respecting the chemistry.
IMHO dead batteries are a fact of life.

Be prepared with a buddy if you're in the desert.
Deal with it if you're alone in a Motel parking lot.

I think there are plenty of other(more predictable) things to worry about.

bikerfish1100 said:

have yet to discover the downsides of this battery.

Click to expand...

The downside is that you can't afford to overcharge a sealed battery. The other one is that they do not last as long as an FLA based on my experience.

MotorradMike said:

Hey GlobalRider:

Calling you on this one.
31495 had a good point about acid leakage. You picked on his less important #2 point and ignored his more important #1 point.

Click to expand...

I guess its important if you fall over a lot. The few times I have, the battery was never on its side long enough to have a chance to leak. BTW, the vent hose can always be placed into a pill bottle sized catch tank.

MotorradMike said:

I think there are plenty of other(more predictable) things to worry about.

Click to expand...

I don't. My batteries last, thanks due to a good charging system on my vehicles and on the bench.

Its the total BS spewed by battery charger manufacturers that I worry about.

GlobalRider said:

I guess its important if you fall over a lot. The few times I have, the battery was never on its side long enough to have a chance to leak. BTW, the vent hose can always be placed into a pill bottle sized catch tank.



I don't. My batteries last, thanks due to a good charging system on my vehicles and on the bench.

Its the total BS spewed by battery charger manufacturers that I worry about.

Click to expand...

Your batteries last (?) maybe because you live in a colder region (along w/ your maintenance routine). I saw a chart from Exide stating 50% life reduction from design life (whatever that is?) when the "Maximum Annual Average Battery Temperature" (?) rises 10*C over the baseline 25*C (MaxAnuAvgBatTem). So if you're at 35*C MAABT, you can expect half the life (all things being equal) from someone @ 25*C MAABT. Phoenix has an AVERAGE ((all avg. monthly highs + all avg. monthly lows)/24) year round temp of 23*C, and Ottawa has an average year round of 6*C. This 17*C difference could mean that my Phoenix batt. will have less than 1/3 the life of my northern friends in Ottawa. It would seem to me that since these derating figures (50% life reduction/10*C over 25*C) would also go the other way, i.e. 100% life increase/10*C under 25*C. That would mean my Phoenix batt should live just a bit longer than design, and my Ottawa batt should live well past 3x the design. But that's using AVG year round temps (I got them off the web), not MAABT, and I think the batt. mfgrs. speak of controlled temps. in lab conditions.
What is the good charging system in your bike and bench that you speak of? Do you remove your batts to the bench to charge/maintain them?

Oops, I see that I made a mistake above. According to one batt. mfgr.,the life will increase ONLY 60% when the temp. drops from 25*C down to -30*C , not the 100% increase @ 15*C that I THOUGHT could happen above.
That's what I get for thinking (out loud).

31495 said:

Your batteries last (?) maybe because you live in a colder region (along w/ your maintenance routine).

Click to expand...

Exactly what I've already mentioned in this or the other battery thread.

The other reason is my batteries aren't being overcharged due to the hotter temperatures. Look up recommended charging voltages based on temperatures and battery type. I have charts on that Battery Care - Revisited thread. What that means is, chances are very good that batteries are being overcharged on very hot days if the voltage regulator isn't temperature compensated properly. If you have a FLA battery, those can be topped up. If you have a VRLA battery, tough luck!

31495 said:

What is the good charging system in your bike and bench that you speak of?

Click to expand...

Whatever comes with my bike or car. I have an on-board digital voltmeter to tell me how my charging system/voltage regulator is doing. If it is in the ball park, I live with it. Unfortunately, they usually are on the low side so that they do not fully charge your battery.

The other option is to install a user adjustable voltage regulator...they do exist. You can get them for the airheads and if you look on the web, the type of voltage regulators that come on our oilheads are also available as an adjustable unit.

My BMW R1150 GS Adventure and Porsche Carrera both have digital voltmeters that I put together. Both read 14.2V while underway. I would like the Carrera to sit at 14.4V...I chose to install a so called low-tech "flooded lead acid" battery in the car.

31495 said:

Do you remove your batts to the bench to charge/maintain them?

Click to expand...

Usually yes; I have two sitting in the basement at the moment. The one in Europe is in the bike and being maintained 10 1/2 months a year by an Optimate III.

FYI, I get far more life out of my FLA batteries when maintaining them in the off season on a manual battery charger, that I connect and disconnect myself. I use a DMM to check on status.

The daily driver car just off idle would peg at 14.4V, even with the usual loads. The battery was 16 years old when the car was sold and the last I heard it went another 2 years...lost contact after then. Eighteen years for a battery...not bad considering it would crank the engine over at sub zero F mornings. My present daily driver's battery is in its 12th year...charging system is right on in that car as well.

You might want to read "How does a battery recharge" and "How critical is recharge voltage" on pages 11 and 12 of the East Penn Technical Manual. Actually the whole manual is informative.

Alex,
Good to know that you're not doing anything special to maintain your batts. and still getting good life out of them.

To the OP,
I would not buy any charger/maintainer for your Oddysey AGM (unless you plan to store your bike for a couple years). They have the lowest self-discharge rates, so charging in the off-season would have little effect on life (capacity). When you ride alot during the riding season, a charger/maintainer will do nothing that the bike's charging system hasn't already done (unless you do lots of <5 min. rides). If, on the other hand, you have high parasitic loses w/ ign. off, you can pull the ground strap in the off season, or plug in a recommended (from Oddysey) charger/maintainer. To those of us w/ AGMs, there's nothing we can do (to extend life) but sit back and wait. The charging system in the bike isn't temp compensated, nor are the common charger/maintainers on the market, so we only think we're helping by plugging in a maintainer.
But what about these desulfators......

31495 said:

I would not buy any charger/maintainer for your Odyssey AGM (unless you plan to store your bike for a couple years). They have the lowest self-discharge rates, so charging in the off-season would have little effect on life (capacity).

Click to expand...

That they do...when they are not connected to anything.

If they are installed, I would still check their voltage every month at the latest. If the voltage drops down by 0.2V max. I would top them up with a small charger.

31495 said:

The charging system in the bike isn't temp compensated, nor are the common charger/maintainers on the market, so we only think we're helping by plugging in a maintainer.

Click to expand...

The next time you have a chance to get the Bosch part number off the back of the voltage regulator, do a search. I have Bosch data sheets showing various slopes...for example, anywhere from -7mV/??C to -14mV/??C. What I don't like is that it regulates based on the temperature at the alternator which isn't necessarily the temperature of the battery.

I am leaning more towards a maintainer that does not go into a float mode. Instead it fully charges in the absorbtion mode and then turns off till the battery voltage drops to say just above 12.5V and starts over again. For that not to cycle faster than it should, the charger would have to not allow any current flow in the standby mode.

31495 said:

But what about these desulfators......

Click to expand...

The only ones who believe in them are the manufacturers of charger/desulphators. They can give me one to test at work; I haven't found one that does what they claim.

my experience with Odyssey batts is that they really like a battery tender to keep it up to snuff in cold weather. if i do not ride the bike for several weeks without tender on it, it will crank over & start, but will produce an ABS flash/fault. with tender i get no ABS flashing, and bike cranks over more readily.

bikerfish1100 said:

my experience with Odyssey batts is that they really like a battery tender to keep it up to snuff in cold weather.

Click to expand...

Have you measured your ignition-off current draw?

For example, on my car it is 22 mA.

no, i have not. but after hooking up a Centech fuse panel, battery performance improved, but i suspect that there is still some slight draw (possibly beyond just the clock)

I had a perplexing question pop into my head the other day. A certain motorcycle in the family had a dead battery probably due to operator error related to the parking light. Suffice it to say it exhibited 4.7 volts that particular morning.

So after charging it briefly we jump started the motorcycle and rode our bikes away for a 230 mile ride. We stopped for gas about 100 miles later and the battery worked fine.

Now for the perplexing question. I've always believed the often printed admonishment not to exceed a charging rate in amps of 10% of the AH rating of the battery - or say 2 amps in this case. Now I know full well that the 28 amp alternator in that particular bike had the ability to charge that battery at a rate far in excess of 2 amps.

And this is far from the first time I've jump started a vehicle with a discharged battery - to what effect? My 2 amp charger would have taken hours to charge that battery and the bike did it in an hour or an hour and a half.

So did we toast the battery? Overheated? Warped Plates? Blown valve?

PGlaves said:

Now for the perplexing question. I've always believed the often printed admonishment not to exceed a charging rate in amps of 10% of the AH rating of the battery - or say 2 amps in this case. Now I know full well that the 28 amp alternator in that particular bike had the ability to charge that battery at a rate far in excess of 2 amps.
Exactly, the regulator regulates voltage only, a drained battery will absorb way too much current.

And this is far from the first time I've jump started a vehicle with a discharged battery - to what effect? My 2 amp charger would have taken hours to charge that battery and the bike did it in an hour or an hour and a half.

So did we toast the battery? Overheated? Warped Plates? Blown valve?

Click to expand...

Toast? Maybe lightly browned but not black, this time.

We can all agree the battery took some hits that day.
1/ Discharged to 4.7V.
2/ Over charged for a couple of hours.

That battery had it's life shortened a bit.
This is simply the lot of automotive batteries. They get beaten pretty hard. You ran the bike because you knew you'd get away with it.
Had something else happened, say the oil filter had a hole in it and you didn't have a spare, you would've cancelled the trip because you wouldn't get away with it.

I really don't understand why people get so wound up about battery life. I have the impression that GlobalRider deals with critical aircraft systems and uses that knowledge successfully on bikes and cars.
For the rest of us though, why worry about it?