R100GS Fans: Schneider's Inc. Forced Under By Lawsuit

I've been using the Sidestand Fixer for a few years now and I really like it. Yes, I have leaned into a left hand curve only to find that the bike wouldn't lean or turn. This maneuver was accompanied by a loud screeching sound. Scared me silly but I never thought to blame Schneider's.

Ultimately, if you modify your bike the burden SHOULD be on you to make sure it's safe.

mike

Did the same fix to the stands of my Ducatis. After goind down pretty hard on one of them after leaving the stand down, I 'fixed' them both back to stock. Self retracting stands are annoying and beg to be 'fixed.' In this case, the Japanese got it right with lock out switches.

Condolences to the rider who went down, but if he put it on himself, he had no one to blame but himself.

lostboy said:

You're supposed to dismount before using the side stand. I even do this when riding Harleys.

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This is news to me, what oracle/guru made this pronouncement? If I dismounted before deploying my sidestand I would need to make the lady with the dress (who teaches picking up dropped bikes) a permanent riding partner.

Also don't forget that we are hearing only one side of the original story, second hand at that.

You're supposed to dismount before using the side stand. I even do this when riding Harleys.[/QUOTE]

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OK genius...you're packed up with tent, sleeping bag, air mattress and stuff and you stop for gas. Solo seat and bag strapped on behind you.

You have the stock self retracting stand. You stretch and can barely push the side stand out far enough so that when you lean the bike over, you have a 50/50 chance of extending or collapsing.

Now you say that you're supposed to somehow balance a fully loaded GS and very ungraciously sorta hop off to the side with very little room to manuever because you can't swing your leg over the back - while keeping the bike upright and then extend the side stand.

And what MSF class did you attend where this is taught...answer - NEVER. Not in any of Dave H's books either.

That's too bad for Bill Schneider, but I bet he knew there was a possibility this could happen and right now he is probably wondering why he took the risk.

I sometimes make and sell parts - a lot of us do - let's learn a lesson at Bill's expense and leave this type of modification alone.

Sure, you could probably get sued for almost any nut or bolt, but this one did have red flags.

Bill, if you read this, have courage.

beemerguru said:

OK genius...

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Where's the chill pills when you need 'em?

/Mod hat on

OK guys, we need to take this down a notch. Some of the previous comments border on personal attacks which will not be tolerated on the forum.

Thanks,

Josh

/Mod hat still on

derailment said:

I learned that Bill Schneider, the owner of Schneider's Inc, who's been in the business of making innovative products for motorcycles since the early-1970's, was sued by a person in Pennsylvania.

By the way, the lawyer in Pennsylvania who filed the lawsuit's name is Laguna, so be careful! If you're interested, the lawsuit is public record and can be found by anyone with similar gumption to do so.

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Really? I'm a lawyer who has a pretty good idea how to look up court cases. I found absolutely nothing searching PA courts for the past half hour. So how about YOU convince me with a cite?

Three thoughts:

1. As has been pointed out, everyone is reacting based on second hand facts. Has anyone even read the plaintiff's actual complaint in the case, or the defendant's answer?

2. How is this the legal profession's fault? Whose name is on that complaint - some greedy widow and family? That's what's killing America, etc., etc. etc.

3. The "American rule" that each side pays its own legal expenses (as opposed to loser pays winner's) is intended as a "pro little guy" rule - who would dare take on, e.g., the employer who fired you for being the wrong race, color, sex, or religion, if he knew that if he lost his case, he would be required to pay not only his only lawyer (if not on a contingency basis, which is sometimes the only way the little guy can afford to hire a lawyer anyway) but also the employer's big law firm? Not saying the system is perfect, but it's not an accident.

Imagine hot coffee scalding you if you spill it on yourself. Who would have thunk that could actually happen.

Remember that one? Only in the USA.

The BMW factory Rider's Manual for my 85 R80 instructs the rider to dismount before deploying the sidestand.

kourt

kourt999 said:

The BMW factory Rider's Manual for my 85 R80 instructs the rider to dismount before deploying the sidestand.

kourt

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Maybe practice makes perfect but when I tried that on my R80GS it fell over almost every time. So I installed a Brown sidestand. Given my three choices.

1. Put down wretched side stand - impossible at my inseam.
2. Get off and drop bike loaded with camping gear.
3. Brown stand

the aftermarket stand won hands down.

YMMV

Sorry for the attitude..but I'm just mad about this.

I've bought over a dozen Side Stand Fixers for my R80G/S projects and need 2 more right now. He made a great product that fixed a German mandated requirement that caused just as many problems if the law wasn't there. Brown side stands were one answer, Bill's was another.

This is about personal responsibility. Reach across, squeeze front brake, get on bike, straighten bike, raise sidestand, check mirrors, set choke, start bike, put in gear, ride away. Wasn't that mantra drilled into you if you took an MSF class...especially that raise side stand part.

Yes, I have ridden off without retracting the sidestand a couple times but learned to quickly and safely recover.

If this situation was caused by user error and not product defect, i do feel this has gone too far away from the Darwin principle.

And now I'm aimlessly rambling

keelerb said:

Three thoughts:

1. As has been pointed out, everyone is reacting based on second hand facts. Has anyone even read the plaintiff's actual complaint in the case, or the defendant's answer?

2. How is this the legal profession's fault? Whose name is on that complaint - some greedy widow and family? That's what's killing America, etc., etc. etc.

3. The "American rule" that each side pays its own legal expenses (as opposed to loser pays winner's) is intended as a "pro little guy" rule - who would dare take on, e.g., the employer who fired you for being the wrong race, color, sex, or religion, if he knew that if he lost his case, he would be required to pay not only his only lawyer (if not on a contingency basis, which is sometimes the only way the little guy can afford to hire a lawyer anyway) but also the employer's big law firm? Not saying the system is perfect, but it's not an accident.

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BUT is is KILLING this country, the cost to the everyday consumer is staggering. Healthcare and drug industry are good examples. Yes there are legitimate claims, but many more that are just some one wanting to hit the Lawyer Lottery!!

My point was, why are you blaming the lawyer as opposed to the greedy widow and family? And how exactly do you know that this guy wasn't selling a defective product knowing it was dangerous but not caring cause he's making money?

I'm absolutely not saying that's the case, because I don't know a danged thing about it....but I strongly suspect no one else here does either.

I don't know your family situation either, but let me ask - if a loved one was killed in an auto accident because of a defective airbag, and you found out that the air bag was defective because the automaker bought substandard airbags because they were cheaper than quality ones - you wouldn't think of suing the SOB (after ruling out killing 'em)? If so, you're a better man than I - or at least a different one.

spring loaded or no?

A few years ago I got tired of the standard sidestand ('74 R90S) swinging back up at the slightest glance while I was busy dismounting or mounting. So I fixed it for me. I actually thought, "WTH designed this?"

I rarely use it since I have a nice Reynolds ride-off (p.55 in pics) which I have never rode off. Traveling light is a good place to start when dismounting a loaded bike. Also, buy the passenger their own air-head, expand your hobby!

As for "loser pays", if our tort system continues as is, I believe in the near future we are going to see info web sites obliterated for fear of getting sued. Just an opinion. There is no free lunch.

898, how is changing over to loser pays going to change that? So it's a loser-pays system, and a site like this gets sued. I'd worry MORE about the possibility of not only losing and paying a judgment and my own lawyer, but also the lawyer for the guy suing me. More reason to settle, even if I'm "right."

Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the thread. I'm through with the legal system. Back to motorcycles!

It does bother me what lawyers will do to win a case. Ruthless and unconscionable IMO and seem to stretch far beyond reasonable advice.
Without a doubt there are very good, decent attorneys who rise above ambulance chasing and an 'anything to win' mentality. There are however others who will jump at the chance to make a buck. I don't know the case and could not find anything in the public PA legal system records with respect to the case (tried in another state perhaps?). I'd like to read it and I am certain there are facts that we do not know. Condolences to the rider if in fact he/she did die. After losing one of my siblings, there is no amount of money that could ever make me feel better about it though. So I'm not clear on what provoked the brother to sue (perhaps a blood/money hungry troglodyte lawyer?).

Bill is out of business. A lawyer endorsed another check. A brother/family perhaps got Bill's savings, heart and livelihood and crippled a 60-year old man. But surprise, nobody rises from the dead. Did that really make it all better?

lkchris said:

Sounds like our legal system is working as it should.

Good. Another evil capitalist put in his place. This guy fits the definition better than most charged as being one.

If you're smart, you wouldn't even help a friend disable a safety system.

In fact, if you truly are a friend, you should be on record as discouraging him/her.

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I find it interesting that earlier last year, lkchris had this to say back then. Someone saw it coming AND mentioned his opinion in this very forum. So if these sidestand fixers were controversial, it wasn't a secret. I suspect the rider's brother who allegedly sued is not a rider and simply looking for someone to pay. It won't fix the situation though and that line on TV "...I just hope that this case can save another from the agony..." is crock and another way to say "I'd like to deposit this please" to your bank.

lkchris has provided many helpful Airhead tips to the forum, although some find his style a bit abrupt. Even still, his Airhead advice has been valuable to me. He's not likely to get sued for any of them...I don't think...at least I'm pretty sure I think, I think...um, yeah, no that can't happen. Right?

Sorry to hear about Bill's woes. I've never used or even seen the sidestand fixer, but I'd take responsibility for myself if I installed one. I could ride in shorts and Teva's then sue BMW, the state I wrecked in, Metzler maybe even that crappy lil gas station I last filled up in and a whole host of fellow Airheads who have been immensely helpful to me...but it wouldn't ever cross my mind. I've been sued, lost family members through tragedy, used by wouldbe friends, and its cost me dearly. Still, it wouldn't cross my mind.

This is the death of common sense in my opinion, putting innovation into a deep coma rather than taking personal responsibility--ok, this does get under my skin and admittedly I do not have all the facts. So is everyone destroying their sidestand fixers now? There are countless small businesses who have become institutions that many of us support so that these bikes, businesses and parts don't die--and they aren't OEM parts. Still we use them. We should all be concerned about this precedent.

Or perhaps we'll all turn into machinists and electricians making parts only for our bikes and remove them when we sell the bikes. I can't imagine a day when we have no small businesses to turn to as an alternative to dealers or for NLA parts. Or maybe we just turn back to the ways of the old west?

pffog said:

BUT is is KILLING this country, the cost to the everyday consumer is staggering. Healthcare and drug industry are good examples. Yes there are legitimate claims, but many more that are just some one wanting to hit the Lawyer Lottery!!

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that is wildly incorrect

take this little test

go downtown in any major city and count at all the skyscrapers built by lawyers

now count up all the skyscrapers built by insurance companies

then let me know who you think is killing the country

there is no lawyer lottery

you want to know why you need lawyers suing the hell out of insurance companies give this video a few minutes of you life

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/IvPW087RiJ8&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IvPW087RiJ8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

and just what makes anyone think innovation is dying in this country

we are, without qualification, the single most technologically innovative nation on the planet

mutineer said:

that is wildly incorrect

take this little test

go downtown in any major city and count at all the skyscrapers built by lawyers

now count up all the skyscrapers built by insurance companies

then let me know who you think is killing the country

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Um, they buy the buildings after they are built or simply lease with the right to tag their name on the outside. I would be interested to know what percentage of employees and contractors at insurance companies are paid to deal with legal matters to deal with, well, others "lawyers suing the hell out of insurance companies".

mutineer said:

you want to know why you need lawyers suing the hell out of insurance companies give this video a few minutes of you life

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Welcome to the capitalist society we thrive in, this video is not surprising, not at all. There goes that conscious out the window for the pack-o-lawyers representing the insurance companies. They've even dwarfed the legal fund for the state of Washington to fight a law that says they ought to pay for the services they've sold the consumer--insurance when needed. So, you must have insurance to register a vehicle...but, the insurance companies don't want to have to pay legit claims. hmm.

mutineer said:

and just what makes anyone think innovation is dying in this country

we are, without qualification, the single most technologically innovative nation on the planet

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Hah...in the 50's, 60's and 70's (and earlier) I'd agree...but anymore we are driven primarily by the almighty dollar in my opinion, rarely innovation. I'd hardly call that innovative. The video post is more data on folks not taking responsibility for themselves and the bill of godds (er, services) they've sold. And you can bet those insurance companies are chalk full of, you guessed it, flesh eating lawyers who'll do anything to win.

I agree that the USA was certainly a powerful leader, innovating in countless industries but as the global economy rolled on we've lost our edge. But in recent times, we have slacked off, outsourced and made global teaming agreement with talented nations. Check out what other nations have been up to the past 20 years as we outsourced and rested on laurels. If we look inward, of course we are the most innovative. Even a coarse glance at the technical innovation around the globe says we are not alone.

Thsi thread could go on and on, and spawn into a lot of heated discussions, so I'll butt out and save that for campfires and poker night.