are you tired of the whining?

Now that I just got home from Colorado and had over 5 hours to think about this issue and read the additional posts, which were very interesting and gave us what it would take to get rid of a young whippersnapper, I have another response.

Ideally, self moderation would be the norm.

Lacking that, peer moderation would be the next level and should take care of most issues.

Only as a last resort should the forum mods have to become involved.

deilenberger said:

That's been my experience also - and based on being on-line since before Arpanet times. Dialup BBS's were a good learning place for what is now "forums" and "Yahoo/Google groups" - much the same idea, and the same social interactions. I ran several and learned a lot about network social interaction by doing it. I applied what I learned from that experience, and from just being "on-line" for so long when I started my Yahoo group.

I'll summarize the rules I have for my Yahoo group:

1 - No flames. First rule. Also clearly stated that anyone flaming anyone else will be summarily thrown out of the group. No appeals, no if-and-or buts - do it and you're gone. In almost 7 years, I've never had to enforce that rule.

2 - Intro message. Before anyone can post to the group - they have to first post an introductory message to the group. The intro message has to include a bit of their BMW history, a bit about themselves. It makes a name in a message into a person. Once I see the intro - it's sent to the group and the person is then allowed to post freely. This also has the secondary effect of keeping any and all spammers out of the group.

3 - SIG for every message. The reasons I gave before.

That's the basic rules. Staying on topic is desireable and encouraged..

Are these rules too draconian? Dunno - the group has grown steadily for the past 6-7 years and requires almost no moderation on my part. When someone forgets their "SIG" usually members will remind them. I started the group as an experiment in Internet "civility" and as a reaction to some particularly juvenile and offensive BMW car forums.

Just some thoughts. I realize some people are nervous about their real name being "out on the web.." - dunno why. Mine has been out on the web for about forever in Internet time, and I'm still here. You can Google it as "Don Eilenberger" or "DJ Eilenberger"..

Click to expand...

If you are not hiding something and/or flaming some one, whats the problem? I whole heartily agree with the above statements. Stand up and be counted and stop hiding behind your cute little names and signs.

jaherbst said:

If you are not hiding something and/or flaming some one, whats the problem? I whole heartily agree with the above statements. Stand up and be counted and stop hiding behind your cute little names and signs.

Click to expand...

Who's hiding?

KBasa said:

You need super powers to see their names in their profile.

Click to expand...

You are correct. I was wrong. I forgot what power I had.

deilenberger said:

PLEASE do not distort what I said to prove a point. I didn't say and never have said "full disclosure" - implying that I did is bogus and a distortion. And I would have hoped that could be avoided in this particular discussion.

Click to expand...

That's true you didn't use the term "full disclosure" but the idea of requiring a name from the person posting on a board where only members can post which means the "club" already has that info is simply an attempt at intimidation. You seem to think that a person will act differently if their name is listed. I don't know why you think that. What are you going to do, go beat them up? Cast a spell on them using their "true name"? The simple fact of the matter is that you do not need to have the name on every post. You aren't going to do anything to the poster with their name that you can't do without it. That info, if you have a valid justified need for it, can be provided through club records.

deilenberger said:

I'd be really curious how you feel having your name known in a restricted access forum adds to your potential identity theft vulnerability since that is part of what my real job is (besides other network administrative tasks..) I suggested before - if you want to know about me - GOOGLE me. My name can be found on search results going back 20+ years, and so far - no one has stolen my identity. You are much more at risk using your credit card at Bob's Stores than by posting your name on every newsgroup or forum you can find.

You're not addressing the point that I was trying to make (obviously not clearly) - that a false sense of anonymity enables the type of attacks we've seen recently.

Click to expand...

Actually I already had done a google your handle. In just a very cursory check (less than a minute total) I found 2 or 3 e-mail addresses as well as your other online activities / additional club affiliations. There was additional information there but I wasn't particularly interested in going further. If you are comfortable about the info, that's fine.

I've also googled my own handle and found references to posts I have made here and elsewhere. What is not found using google is my name or even where I live. I like it that way, I get more than enough spam and junk mail as it is.

I don't care for intimidation, either private or institutional under color of an organization. If you need to talk to me feel free to use my handle here. You can either do so in the open or in a PM. I answer to it rather readily. If you need to cast a spell using my "true name" or something else like that I'll give you a name you can use. Just let me know. As far as this bbs is concerned I have no intention of posting my name on it.

I have had a sig line in the past with and without my name in it. In that respect I have no particular axe to grind. For a long time my sig line included ÔÇô pass the mustard and Up the Revolution ÔÇô which I believe to be unacceptable under the new guidelines and is the part of my sig line I miss the most. I am just waiting for the dust to settle before I pick a sig line once again. I believe that if you went back over my posts you would find me the same person with or without the real name included in them with very few exceptions. Okay as long as I donÔÇÖt put Bentley advertisements in my posts.

Self moderation is wonderful in concept; however, it assumes a moderate reasonable person to begin with and I believe that is what lacking in some.

Peer moderation at first blush is appealing but in practice to often tends to resemble tar and feathering or a lynching.

Work on what is included in the member profile and what is required there. Require that a member put their name their or automate it so that the members name and MOA number automatically appear in the profile.
ÔÇó This would go a long way to achieving the transparency goals sought in having the posters name in a sig line.
ÔÇó It allows your fellow members the privacy they desire for what ever reason in not having their name in every post for the non member public to see.
ÔÇó To access a users profile currently you have to be a registered user of the board. Maximize the controls on this feature and in the process security concerns that may exist are addressed.

Review the chain of command and reporting duties included in the back of the house. I suspect that there are reporting, monitoring and chain of command issues put in place at the inception of the forum that allowed it to go forward at that time but either are no longer needed or not serving the Association, the forum members or the BoD any more in the way intended.

The people who should be moderating threads are the moderators. We seem to have neutered them.

Give the moderators the training and the tools to get involved and take control before the donnybrooks break out. In short order the vast majority of the problems debated in this thread and others will be addressed.

Give the moderators the support they need and deserve. I have the greatest respect for Gail Hatch and voted for her. This is not intended as a personal attack on her. This comes from observation and experience dealing with unintended consequences of leadership actions in other settings I have worked with and is meant as an example.

The BoD seems to have a great deal of involvement in the oversight of the forum and moderation team. If I were a moderator I would wonder about my role and the support it receives when a sitting board member is in open violation of the rules I am to be supporting and enforcing with her sig line.

My current work project has resulted in my living with my youngest daughter and her family. I spend a great deal of time with an intelligent pair of pit crew members age four and six. I am constantly reminded how quickly they can find the weakness in a position and exploit it.

Members that make that connection and observation begin to wonder about all sorts of things connected or not. We have a highly intelligent group here so donÔÇÖt make assumptions about who is making these connections, it will not be only the hot heads.


Cut to the heart of most of the arguments and we have the tools, skills and people available to address them if we put them in the proper order and empower the people that should be using them.

M1ka said:

Self moderation is wonderful in concept; however, it assumes a moderate reasonable person to begin with and I believe that is what lacking in some.

The people who should be moderating threads are the moderators. We seem to have neutered them.

If I were a moderator I would wonder about my role and the support it receives when a sitting board member is in open violation of the rules I am to be supporting and enforcing with her sig line.

We have a highly intelligent group here so donÔÇÖt make assumptions about who is making these connections, it will not be only the hot heads.

Click to expand...

I admire spirit.
I also believe in following rules when they are in my best interests.

What I will not do, however, is volunteer for a thankless job enforcing rules that are being blatantly ignored by those who would charge me to enforce them.

I'm not complaining mind you, but carefully I hope, explaining.

jaherbst said:

If you are not hiding something and/or flaming some one, whats the problem? I whole heartily agree with the above statements. Stand up and be counted and stop hiding behind your cute little names and signs.

Click to expand...

You might want to fill out your signature.

KBasa said:

You might want to fill out your signature.

Click to expand...

I was waiting for someone to notice that.

If anyone is bored with this - please page down now. I apologize since it seems that what I thought was a simple point has become a very long winded dissertation..

Motor31 said:

That's true you didn't use the term "full disclosure" but the idea of requiring a name from the person posting on a board where only members can post which means the "club" already has that info is simply an attempt at intimidation. You seem to think that a person will act differently if their name is listed. I don't know why you think that.

Click to expand...

Apparently you didn't read the posting I made explaining why I think this is based on experience running a Yahoo group (much like a forum/BBS) where I do require this? The simple fact is - people DO act differently. For real. You're welcome to join and find out.

What are you going to do, go beat them up? Cast a spell on them using their "true name"?

Click to expand...

I have to assume I'm being much too dense in expressing myself or something. Or you're being humerous and I'm missing it somehow.

It's simple - most people don't crap where people can identify them.

If I met someone at a rally - and had been an obnoxious poster using the handle of "SJ Waddernobby123" - and I introduced myself as Don Eilenberger - the person I met would have no idea I was the same obnoxious person known as "SJ Waddernobby123". I would feel somewhat more secure BEING obnoxious because of that anonymity. The anonymity enables and encourages that behavior in some people.

I'm "Don Eilenberger" here - I'm "Don Eilenberger" on a bunch of other forums and email lists. I'm "Don Eilenberger" when I'm giving a seminar at a rally. I don't feel the need to hide who I am. If I'm obnoxious (or more likely boring) - feel free to tell me to my face, I don't hide behind a "handle".

The simple fact of the matter is that you do not need to have the name on every post. You aren't going to do anything to the poster with their name that you can't do without it. That info, if you have a valid justified need for it, can be provided through club records.

Click to expand...

I can assure you it has nothing at all to do with what I'd do with the poster - besides avoiding them. It has to do with the poster thinking they can get away with something because no one will ever know who they really are.

Actually I already had done a google your handle. In just a very cursory check (less than a minute total) I found 2 or 3 e-mail addresses as well as your other online activities / additional club affiliations. There was additional information there but I wasn't particularly interested in going further. If you are comfortable about the info, that's fine.

Click to expand...

The point being - I'm not threatened by the information being "out there" since there is nothing to feel threatened about - despite my name being attached to it. I just did a quick Google on "Don Eilenberger" - about 3,000 responses on Google. A Google on "DJ Eilenberger" - my former professional name came back with 610 hits. So - there is something over 3,500 refererences found by Google and I don't feel threatened by them. That's my point. My name being known - even though it's a somewhat unique name (all the references I've ever found were to me) isn't a threat.

I've also googled my own handle and found references to posts I have made here and elsewhere. What is not found using google is my name or even where I live. I like it that way, I get more than enough spam and junk mail as it is.

Click to expand...

I can assure you - and I do a lot of this for a living - having your real name known will not increase either spam or junk mail. That's not the mechanism used to send it. Just doesn't work that way.

I don't care for intimidation, either private or institutional under color of an organization.

Click to expand...

I don't understand how you feel intimidated by people knowing your name. That to me seems like paranoia. There may be a good reason you are worried, but I can't see it. I guess I should feel lucky that way.

I wondered back after getting an email from MOA wishing me a happy birthday. I noticed that a few members (who also frequent ADV) had sent me PMs wishing me a happy birthday. Honestly, I stopped checking in often for three reasons:

1) I changed jobs and no longer sit in front of a computer all day
2) At the same time, things got weird in here, everybody started complaining about everything, and I think a lot of people (mods, admins, volunteers, etc) were getting crapped on for doing a thankless job.
3) I am a new member on advrider, and found that to be more entertaining than the complaining that was going on here.

With that said, I think Don has a valid point with not being able to hide behind a phony name. my screen name is my real name. Adam C Eckhardt. If you really want to know, my middle name is Cooper.

I have my good days and I have my bad. Sometimes somebody might hit a nerve and I type something stupid in response. To a certain degree I may say things that I wouldn't say in real life, only because its the internet, but for the most part I feel that throwing my real name next to every post encourages me to keep it real 97% of the time. If you don't like me here and now, chalk it up to the 3% where I'm getting carried away. Hope to meet you at a rally soon- I play well with others in real life.

Adam

RandallIsland said:

I admire spirit.
I also believe in following rules when they are in my best interests.

What I will not do, however, is volunteer for a thankless job enforcing rules that are being blatantly ignored by those who would charge me to enforce them.

I'm not complaining mind you, but carefully I hope, explaining.

Click to expand...

This!!!

Some thoughts.

After reading through this and thinking about it foa a couple of days, I have some thoughts.

To answer the original question, yes, I think continueing bitching and moaning at the volunteers is tiresome and irritating. I think we have all gotten a little bit edgy here, more so over the winter and hopefully now that riding season has arrived, people are getting more relaxed again.

I think if someone volunteers for the orginization, they deserve respect and the benefit of the doubt. The willingness to volunteer should be rewarded with respect from the other members.

However... (I hate the howver, you hate the however, we all hate the however, but in a non ideal world, it exists.) If I volunteer for a position, and am approved by the club leadership for that position, and then perform badly, I do not have immunity. While no one has claimed that as a volunteer I would, we need to be really clear as to how this is handled. Criticising in open forum is inappropriate to say the least. There is a chain of command and a procedure if someone has a beef with a volunteer, be they a moderator or otherwise. If a member has chased all the procedures properly, and they still have a complaint, the forum exists for us to communicate. The problem with that comes back to how we treat each other. The forum exists to communicate and share, not berate and put down.

The key to this and any other forum is how people treat each other. Whether that is how we treat volunteers, how volunteers treat members they are dealing with in an official capacity, or how the membership interacts with each other. And invariably, when we run into a forum SNAFU, it is usually because this interaction has broken down.

Don,

It comes down to your premise being that a person acts differently when their name is known. I disagree. Having a name out in the open does not moderate it. Maintaining a no second chance forum might do it but it is subject to gross abuse by the person with the "hammer" who might think that all problems are nails. I think it would also make the forum into a rather vacant and uninteresting place for discussion.

I frequently use my "handle" when introducing myself to another person (face to face) who is on either this board or adv rider. I have no problem doing that at all. I'll give them my name and then let them know who I am on the board. I talk to other folks who ride BMW's when I get the chance just like I talk to folks with a Patriot Guard sticker or an ADV sticker on their bikes. I use the same handle in all 3 boards too. When I go to a rally I have my "handle" on my ID tag.

If you can't deal with me from my "handle" you won't be able to deal with me by name either. I don't post any differently in either case. The insistence that I give my name to you is only a tool to try and change a person by virtue of intimidation, whether you want to admit it or not. Having a name on the board does not mean you know who you are talking to. You would have to cross check the club records to determine if the name on the sig matched the person's membership. A John Franklin (example "real name") is just as anonymous to you as a board handle. It's also just as useless unless the person who posts their name is somehow intimidated that you know who they are. That's not me being paranoid it's me telling you that it doesn't impress me a bit that you seem to think you need to know my name for me to use this board.

BTW I'd tell you the same thing in person too.

Oh and I'm glad you caught the sarcasm I put in the previous post. I was worried I was too subtle there given the lack of "body language" and vocal cues in a text message for full communications purposes.

When I meet people at a rally or similar, I'll say, "Hi. I'm Scott Conary." When they invariably don't recognize the name, I'll say, "Otherwise known as Kuh-nary" and they, if they frequent the forums, immediately light up recognizing who I am. This despite the fact that I've got scott conary and conary.org in every post.

knary said:

When I meet people at a rally or similar, I'll say, "Hi. I'm Scott Conary." When they invariably don't recognize the name, I'll say, "Otherwise known as Kuh-nary" and they, if they frequent the forums, immediately light up recognizing who I am. This despite the fact that I've got scott conary and conary.org in every post.

Click to expand...

Oh! Your are "that" Scott.

SIBUD said:

Oh! Your are "that" Scott.

Click to expand...

It might be different if my username was SConary or similar. But it isn't nor is it about to be.

knary said:

It might be different if my username was SConary or similar. But it isn't nor is it about to be.

Click to expand...

And it might be unbelievably different if your username was a something similar and your profile photo was...

tessler said:

And it might be unbelievably different if your username was a something similar and your profile photo was...

Click to expand...

I'm sexier.

KBasa said:

I wish I'd been to Hawaii.

Click to expand...

You should go. It's nice. I remember sitting on the beach drinking adult beverages, watching beautiful young Hawaiin ladies do the hula.