Checking for spline wear 1999 R1100S

[AntonLargiader]

Wish I could find the article.

It's not there; that's just a sampling of what the magazine contained. Some are just titles, some excerpts, some full articles.

 

[roger 04 rt]

Hi Roger,
When are you going to do the spline lube? Who knows, maybe things won't be as bad as you think. I did mine at about 39K miles and could not detect any wear at all even under a magnifying glass. Was easy to do as I separated the trans from the engine without disassembly of the drive train. Just positioned an hydraulic jack on wheels under the tranny and rolled everything back. Then if you get lucky put it back together and forget you have that 6th gear! I know that is hard to do especially with that LC-1 installed. Oh, one more thing..buy a clutch slave cylinder for about fifty bucks in advance because you will probably need it..grrrr

Hey Jim, I'm thinking I'll do the inspection, measurement (of clutch runout) and lubrication sometime in the next month. I'm planning to leave the drivetrain rear of the transmission intact, and also replace the clutch slave cylinder which I have on hand.

I'm wondering, is it possible to leave the transmission on long guide pins and inspect and lubricate in place?

I'm not worried about the transmission input shaft torque from running in higher gears because even if you were to be as slow as 50 mph in 6th, it is only about 15 lb.-ft. at 2500 RPM which is about 20% of peak torque. It is much easier to get to peak torque in a lower gear but accelerating hard at 6000 RPM where the torque on the input shaft can reach 70 lb.-ft.

RB

 

[roger 04 rt]

Here is a post from a guy who never lubed his splines until he pulled the transmission at 175,000 miles.

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=865215#Post865215

And the photos from his links:

 

[dieselyoda]

Can you get 175k out of anything without $$$$$????

Here is a post from a guy who never lubed his splines until he pulled the transmission at 175,000 miles.

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=865215#Post865215

And the photos from his links:

Looks to me like a winner. If I got anywhere near a NA transmission rebuild that costs over $1700.00 per in that mileage, I would be happy.

Your point?

 

[jammess]

Hi Roger,
I wouldn't say it is impossible to clean and lube splines with trans still on guide pins but it would be very cumbersome and complete separation is really not an issue especially with the drive train intact including rear wheel. Don't forget to put a dab of spline lube on the very end of the clutch push rod.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Here is a post from a guy who never lubed his splines until he pulled the transmission at 175,000 miles.

That's a 5-speed spline. Not unusual at all.

 

[roger 04 rt]

That's a 5-speed spline. Not unusual at all.

Is the 5 speed a full hub/spline engagement?

 

[roger 04 rt]

Hi Roger,
I wouldn't say it is impossible to clean and lube splines with trans still on guide pins but it would be very cumbersome and complete separation is really not an issue especially with the drive train intact including rear wheel. Don't forget to put a dab of spline lube on the very end of the clutch push rod.

Thanks, I was wondering if I could avoid rigging the movable support but come to think of it the creeper will do fine.

Is it best to re-engage hub and spline exactly as they were, or not necessary?

 

[jammess]

Thanks, I was wondering if I could avoid rigging the movable support but come to think of it the creeper will do fine.

Is it best to re-engage hub and spline exactly as they were, or not necessary?

I can't see how that is really necessary although that's what I did because I didn't rotate the trans input shaft. Just cleaned with kerosene and a tooth brush then checked underside with a dental mirror. Lubed with a 50/50 mix of Sig 3000 and Honda moly purchased from the airhead guru Matt Parkhouse at the 2010 Redmond, OR MOA rally. Parkhouse probably still sells this lubricant mix on-line.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Is the 5 speed a full hub/spline engagement?

The answer is right there in the pictures.

 

[roger 04 rt]

Came across this interesting "tip" from Sachs about testing clutch plate wobble on a new clutch before installation. They mention a factory test and then note in spite of that transport and handling them can add wobble ... Here's the link to the article: http://www.zf.com/brands/content/en...achs/clutch_disk_check/clutch_disk_check.html



Here's a photo from the article

I'm seeing Anton's point more and more. Any wobble in the clutch or housing AND a short insertion would spell trouble.

 

[roger 04 rt]

And some comments from them on lubrication: http://www.zf.com/brands/content/en...sachs/useful_tips_sachs/naben/hub_spline.html

 

[nrpetersen]

The clutch disk shown has a torsional damper in it and show a pilot bearing. Ours do not have either, and as a result, the hub is radially very stiff with respect to the friction surfaces. They seem to be simply worried about the spline dragging axially.

Our problem is that since there is no pilot bearing assuring alignment, the possibility of hi-cycle radial spline loading is very real. Simple estimates of the forces involved show that our spline wear is dominated by radial alignment errors.

Why else do some bikes show zero wear, and others shell the spline out every so-many miles?

 

[gsaddict]

The clutch disk shown has a torsional damper in it and show a pilot bearing. Ours do not have either, and as a result, the hub is radially very stiff with respect to the friction surfaces. They seem to be simply worried about the spline dragging axially.

Our problem is that since there is no pilot bearing assuring alignment, the possibility of hi-cycle radial spline loading is very real. Simple estimates of the forces involved show that our spline wear is dominated by radial alignment errors.

Why else do some bikes show zero wear, and others shell the spline out every so-many miles?

It would really be interesting to know if riding style factors into this.

 

[lkchris]

And some comments from them on lubrication: http://www.zf.com/brands/content/en...sachs/useful_tips_sachs/naben/hub_spline.html

Anybody know a source for a tube of this grease?

 

[happy wanderer]

I notice they are greasing both the clutch hub and the input shaft. On our bikes, upon reassembly doing that is going to push the grease from the clutch hub inward where it will be flung all over the clutch and ruin it.

 

[roger 04 rt]

It would really be interesting to know if riding style factors into this.

The highest torque loading on the input shaft comes at high throttle angles, high rpms. There's a candidate.

 

[roger 04 rt]

The clutch disk shown has a torsional damper in it and show a pilot bearing. Ours do not have either, and as a result, the hub is radially very stiff with respect to the friction surfaces. They seem to be simply worried about the spline dragging axially.

Our problem is that since there is no pilot bearing assuring alignment, the possibility of hi-cycle radial spline loading is very real. Simple estimates of the forces involved show that our spline wear is dominated by radial alignment errors.

Why else do some bikes show zero wear, and others shell the spline out every so-many miles?

I included the clutch plate flatness article link because of the implications that if disc flatness and squareness to centerline is important, then so is clutch housing squareness.

While I completely I understand, and don't disagree a with centerline misalignment, it doesn't seem like a good model to explain tapered wear on the splines.

While the BMW clutch is radially stiff, it does not have planar stiffness. No one has commented on the possibility of resonant rpms that might be accelerating wear.

 

[nrpetersen]

While I completely understand, and don't disagree a with centerline misalignment, it doesn't seem like a good model to explain tapered wear on the splines.

The reason shaft wear is tapered is that the flex plate is near that end of the spline hub, concentrating and reacting any radial load there.

There is no resonance related problem here. I designed several high speed spinning torsional vibration test stands for the auto industry before retirement.

 

[roger 04 rt]

The reason shaft wear is tapered is that the flex plate is near that end of the spline hub, concentrating and reacting any radial load there.

There is no resonance related problem here. I designed several high speed spinning torsional vibration test stands for the auto industry before retirement.

Can you show in a diagram, as Anton has, why the taper is in the direction it is (wear in the shaft center) rather than wear at the shaft end?

What do you mean by radial alignment error, shaft centerline, shaft axis angular error or other?

Could you point us to descriptions of the error you're describing written by developers or manufacturers if these types of systems, along with the controls and corrections you thing are required?
RB