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AdventureGoat
Guest
Is there any harm (other than the obvious additional financial burden) in changing the engine oil frequently. Say, every 2500 miles.
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BobFV1
Guest
Other than to the environment, no harm will be done. My dad used to swear by changing the oil in his cars and bikes every 1000 miles. Oil was .29 a quart back in those days, and came in cardboard and metal cans.
bikerfish1100
New member
+1000 on the waste aspect, the personal $ cost aspect, and the global environmental cost (yes, you too do not live in a vacuum!).
Combine those concerns with the total lack of need to do so (BMW recommends 6K, as do most oil manufacturers at this point), and the question comes up... why would you want to?
Combine those concerns with the total lack of need to do so (BMW recommends 6K, as do most oil manufacturers at this point), and the question comes up... why would you want to?
glurkus
New member
Several factors will dictate how often you need to change your oil. Oil does not lose its ability to lubricate. What happens is moisture contaminates the oil over time and makes it acidic. (basicly hydrochloric acid.) This will cause pitting and wear of your engine components. Modern oil has more additives to help keep it from turning acidic.
If you drive a lot of short trips where the engine never fully warms up, there will be more moisture in the oil, causing it to turn acidic faster, so you need to change the oil more often. If you drive on longer trips, the moisture will evaporate out of the oil, and you can change your oil less frequently.
If you drive mostly longer trips of 10 miles or more at highway speeds, changing your oil every 2500 miles would be a waist of time and money.
For you seasonal riders, regardless of the milage on the oil, it makes sense to change the oil before you put the bike away for the winter.
If you drive a lot of short trips where the engine never fully warms up, there will be more moisture in the oil, causing it to turn acidic faster, so you need to change the oil more often. If you drive on longer trips, the moisture will evaporate out of the oil, and you can change your oil less frequently.
If you drive mostly longer trips of 10 miles or more at highway speeds, changing your oil every 2500 miles would be a waist of time and money.
For you seasonal riders, regardless of the milage on the oil, it makes sense to change the oil before you put the bike away for the winter.
soffiler
New member
Yes, there IS a harm that can befall your bike with too-frequent oil changes. It is commonly held that the greatest chance for wear occurs immediately after an oil change, when the engine is started and the oil filter and all oil passages need some time to fill.
BMW is the expert here, not me. Their advice is based upon reams of reliability data gathered by engineers who make their career specializing in this one narrow area, called tribology. "Motor" is their middle name.
On top of that, I'll second the financial and environmental impacts cited by others.
BMW is the expert here, not me. Their advice is based upon reams of reliability data gathered by engineers who make their career specializing in this one narrow area, called tribology. "Motor" is their middle name.
On top of that, I'll second the financial and environmental impacts cited by others.
mika
Still Wondering
Why? There are applications where more frequent, in terms of miles, changes make sense. It is not uncommon for people with performance street engines/vehicles to change at 3000 miles. Is there underlying reason that you are considering more frequent oil changes?
In normal street use the useable life of modern oils far exceeds what any of us would run it in our engines when measured in miles. So there is little or no benefit to be gained in most cases by exceeding the recommended changes in what I have learned.
The potential harm soffiler pointed out is real. The cause is also there for an engine that has been sitting for any length of time and is revved up before it has a chance to fill the oil system.
Again, why?
In normal street use the useable life of modern oils far exceeds what any of us would run it in our engines when measured in miles. So there is little or no benefit to be gained in most cases by exceeding the recommended changes in what I have learned.
The potential harm soffiler pointed out is real. The cause is also there for an engine that has been sitting for any length of time and is revved up before it has a chance to fill the oil system.
Again, why?
In the military, we ran bulk-grade oil, usually 30 weight. We were not allowed to change it until oil samples were analyzed, and breakdown products discovered. Many of those vehicles had 15,000 miles on the oil.
PS - this is my last comment, because we are risking the dreaded oil thread here
soffiler
New member
...PS - this is my last comment, because we are risking the dreaded oil thread here
Too late!
j-budimlya
Jim Bud
When oil is recycled....there is little harm to the enviroment.....just make sure it is taken to the recycle center.....most oil used in bulk at the large oil change shops is recycled oil....works great for all.....and gives you an idea of how long your oil can last.....of course, the additives package has been refreshed....and the bad stufff has been refined out......so, it is like new.....sort of....
108625
New member
AdventureGoat,
The old 2,500 to 3,000 mile oil change interval made more sense "way back when" than now. Engines were built without oil filters up until sixties, for the most part. They also generally vented blow-by gasses out of the crankcase through simple breathers, rather than using intake vacuum to help draw them out. Frequent oil changes were required to keep them clean, (or at least less dirty). It did not have as much to do with the actual useful lubricating "life" of the oil as you might think.
The old 2,500 to 3,000 mile oil change interval made more sense "way back when" than now. Engines were built without oil filters up until sixties, for the most part. They also generally vented blow-by gasses out of the crankcase through simple breathers, rather than using intake vacuum to help draw them out. Frequent oil changes were required to keep them clean, (or at least less dirty). It did not have as much to do with the actual useful lubricating "life" of the oil as you might think.
bikerfish1100
New member
And this potential damage can be largely alleviated by filling the filter with fresh oil prior to installation. It's made even easier on our bikes with the spin on filters that are mounted/threaded at the top, allowing pretty much a full pre-fill at installation.
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AdventureGoat
Guest
I appreciate all the feedback. I too fully support the environment and I am not suggesting that I will be changing my oil every 2500 miles.
I posed the question mostly out of curiousity rather than a potential best practice.
I will stay with every 6000 miles or every Spring and Fall; whichever comes first.
Regards,
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BobFV1
Guest
soffiler
New member
That's all true PLUS the additive packages in oil have improved dramatically since the sixties.
j-budimlya
Jim Bud
I think you have it a bit mixed up....the crankcase venting to the outside used to be a way of getting rid of the bad stuff from starup and blowby from an engine that was wornout.....the use off crankcase vacumn to rid the engine of these gases doees just the opposite it sucks the gases into the engine for another go around....thereby concentrating the nasties in the engine....this is one fo th reasons for modern oil additive packages and the need to tighter engine tolerences to minimize the blowby.....although some of the improvement could be attritubed to performance improvement with the side benefit of lower blowby.....either way....short runs in cold weather makes alot of bad chemistry in the engine....its alot worse then just making a bit of acid....it makes lots of water too.....and corrosion is the byproduct......run your motor till its warmed up....expecially in cold weather ......ridinng is best for this.....here in SoCal,,,,its really a non-issue....warmup in 5 minnutes or less year around.....I'm lucky....up north in those cold mornings.....15-20 minnutes at least to boil off the bad stufff.....too bad you get to ride longer...
108625
New member
I should clarify.
Every four stroke engine has some level of blow-by, even formula one racers and aircraft engines. It's just worse when cold or worn out. It might not seem significant, but occurring on every power stroke it builds up quickly. In any case, positive pressure is generated just from the pistons compressing air inside the crankcase on the intake and combustion strokes, blowing out oil seals if it not ventilated. That was the original purpose of the old "breather".
Newer PCV systems were designed to draw some of those nasty unburnt hydrocarbons out through the intake system primarily to reduce air polution. Reducing the accumulation of acids, condensation and sludge are the other major benefit, which I was alluding to.
I agree on how combustion gasses affect oil, which is why I change mine before winter hibernation here in Montana. I also am convinced that modern oils in modern engines don't have as bad a problem with it as an older engine design, just started, running at its coldest, with the fuel enrichener (or choke in a car) on, running at its richest. No wonder we used to change the old cardboard cans of Wolf's Head so often.
Every four stroke engine has some level of blow-by, even formula one racers and aircraft engines. It's just worse when cold or worn out. It might not seem significant, but occurring on every power stroke it builds up quickly. In any case, positive pressure is generated just from the pistons compressing air inside the crankcase on the intake and combustion strokes, blowing out oil seals if it not ventilated. That was the original purpose of the old "breather".
Newer PCV systems were designed to draw some of those nasty unburnt hydrocarbons out through the intake system primarily to reduce air polution. Reducing the accumulation of acids, condensation and sludge are the other major benefit, which I was alluding to.
I agree on how combustion gasses affect oil, which is why I change mine before winter hibernation here in Montana. I also am convinced that modern oils in modern engines don't have as bad a problem with it as an older engine design, just started, running at its coldest, with the fuel enrichener (or choke in a car) on, running at its richest. No wonder we used to change the old cardboard cans of Wolf's Head so often.
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bob1100rtc
Guest
I change oil and filter in every vehicle I own at 3000 miles. Makes me happy so thats what I do. As far as the environment, me changing my oil isn't going to raise the global temp 10 degrees or melt an ice cap. For all the people that are thinking I'm some insane toxic villan I say quit joy riding your bike. Your using a lot more gas than the 4 qts of oil I use. Get off your high horse and just have some fun.
