Is Harley-Davidson Dying?

[AKsuited]

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Whatever. I don't mind Harleys, I just could never pull off the pirate look, and that whole thing seems ridiculous to me. Image is not that important to me. A modern bike that handles well, gets decent fuel economy, and is reliable and durable is what I want. Haven't checked out Triumphs, although I do notice there are three Triumph dealers in Western New York state, and no BMW dealers...Every other town has a Harley dealer.

Harry

 

[36654]

<iframe width="994" height="559" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/zcXMd0XCKAQ" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Whatever. I don't mind Harleys, I just could never pull off the pirate look, and that whole thing seems ridiculous to me. Image is not that important to me. A modern bike that handles well, gets decent fuel economy, and is reliable and durable is what I want. Haven't checked out Triumphs, although I do notice there are three Triumph dealers in Western New York state, and no BMW dealers...Every other town has a Harley dealer.

Harry

I wouldn't be scared to try a Triumph.

 

[EUGENE]

For me H-D Triumph
BMW Yes.Yes!

 

[PoorUB]

Whatever. I don't mind Harleys, I just could never pull off the pirate look, and that whole thing seems ridiculous to me. Image is not that important to me. A modern bike that handles well, gets decent fuel economy, and is reliable and durable is what I want. Haven't checked out Triumphs, although I do notice there are three Triumph dealers in Western New York state, and no BMW dealers...Every other town has a Harley dealer.

Harry

What does the "pirate look" have to do with it? I have been riding Harleys for 15 years, after coming off Japanese bikes. I wear the same gear on my BMW as my Harley, Tourmaster jacket, often a full face helmet, Danner tactical boots. I do have a HD "racing" leather jacket in the orange, black and cream colors I wear sometimes, even on my BMW and my Yamaha R1. I never got into the chaps, leather vest and do-rag look. I wear gear I like, not what the masses expect me to wear.

I find it interesting one would consider a brand of motorcycle by the expected clothing one might wear.

As for handing, Harleys are not high on the list, but they handle fine for a 900 pound bike, gas mileage is ok, not as good as my RT but not that far behind. I logged my gas for 10,000 miles over one summer and averaged 42MPG. The suspension is what kills me, $1,000 rear shocks on my 2016 Limited were a great improvement. My 2016 has not been in the shop for anything other than tires and oil. Dead reliable for 30,000 miles. Engine performance is a bit lacking, but unless you like to cruise the interstate at high speed it is adequate. Cams, exhaust and a tune helped get the performance to an acceptable level for me.

 

[gregfeeler]

Whatever. I don't mind Harleys, I just could never pull off the pirate look, and that whole thing seems ridiculous to me. Image is not that important to me. A modern bike that handles well, gets decent fuel economy, and is reliable and durable is what I want. Haven't checked out Triumphs, although I do notice there are three Triumph dealers in Western New York state, and no BMW dealers...Every other town has a Harley dealer.

Harry

Nicely done video, and from my perspective, spot on. About six years ago I got a 1998 Triumph Thunderbird Sport 900 triple for a price I couldn't resist. It was dirty, but under the dirt was a like-new bike with a counterbalanced dual overhead cam triple with all modern engineering. First Triumph ever for me, and I was greatly impressed by the engineering and fit and finish. When I got done removing all the neglect from the first owner it was beautiful. The exhaust note was intoxicating, it was powerful, and handled like a dream. Extremely good handling in the mountains of Idaho. It seemed every time I stopped someone would come over to complement it or tell about the Triumph they had. The brand has an amazing mind share. I was very, very impressed with that bike that I would have no reservations about having another. I know several friends who have bought new ones and they love them. I only sold it because I had more bikes than time to ride and had to make a choice.

 

[AKsuited]

What does the "pirate look" have to do with it?

It's a cultural thing. Standard attire for a Harley rider around here is a fake beanie helmet, black leather vest with lots of patches, and fingerless gloves. I get snickers from that tribe when I wear my full coverage gear, full-face white helmet, and Hi-Viz Helite vest. I am more comfortable in the BMW tribe, which values sensible ATGATT gear and there is no peer pressure to ride with no protective gear. There are Harley riders wearing full gear on the open road and I salute them. But they appear to be the minority.

And I much prefer a lighter bike that handles well, has plenty of power to pass, excellent brakes, and so on.

Harry

 

[pglaves]

As I have posted way too many times our house is along the highway, 25 or so miles from Big Bend National Park. You need to intend to be here to get here. We get a lot of motorcyclists in season. We get many more Harley bikes than any other brand.

But we also get a variety of Harley riders. We get at least three types. One is a bunch of riders I could hardly tell from BMW riders. Textile or quality leather gear, reasonable helmets, quiet mufflers, etc. We also get a few I would surmise - but couldn't prove - are true one percenter gang banger drug dealer dudes. The rest are the "please notice me, oh please notice me pick me in dodgeball in 8th grade, pirates." Beanie helmets or none at all. Fingerless gloves. Loud pipes. Assless chaps. Ape hanger bars. All stretched out in the gynecologist position. Handlebar tassles. Shopping mall jackets. Lots of patches. Ladies following in the Lexus or Expedition SUV. Precision backing into their parking places. Road captains! They are actually quite easy to spot, as they live their version of the lifestyle on vacation or on the weekend. Before they go back to work in the law office, the dental office, the car lot, the garbage truck, or the oil field.

 

[PoorUB]

It's a cultural thing. Standard attire for a Harley rider around here is a fake beanie helmet, black leather vest with lots of patches, and fingerless gloves

Harry

I understand, it is the same here, but you can wear what ever you like. I ride with a few guys in the "uniform " and guys wearing hi-vis.

 

[akbeemer]

I understand, it is the same here, but you can wear what ever you like. I ride with a few guys in the "uniform " and guys wearing hi-vis.

Yes, of course, one can wear whatever he/she prefers; and one can have and express an opinion about such attire. And, of course, those who wear the standard pirate attire have and express an opinion about what we ATGATT types wear. There are, of course, HD riders who ride a great deal, ride very well and wear the appropriate protective gear, but the brand is dominated by riders who dress to conform to what they perceive as being the biker life style; and look rather silly in the process. But to each their own.

 

[Voni]

This thread needs to die

It will.

In good time.

When we quit feeding it.

Voni
sMiling

 

[Stebe]

What does the "pirate look" have to do with it? I have been riding Harleys for 15 years, after coming off Japanese bikes. I wear the same gear on my BMW as my Harley, Tourmaster jacket, often a full face helmet, Danner tactical boots. I do have a HD "racing" leather jacket in the orange, black and cream colors I wear sometimes, even on my BMW and my Yamaha R1. I never got into the chaps, leather vest and do-rag look. I wear gear I like, not what the masses expect me to wear.

I find it interesting one would consider a brand of motorcycle by the expected clothing one might wear.

As for handing, Harleys are not high on the list, but they handle fine for a 900 pound bike, gas mileage is ok, not as good as my RT but not that far behind. I logged my gas for 10,000 miles over one summer and averaged 42MPG. The suspension is what kills me, $1,000 rear shocks on my 2016 Limited were a great improvement. My 2016 has not been in the shop for anything other than tires and oil. Dead reliable for 30,000 miles. Engine performance is a bit lacking, but unless you like to cruise the interstate at high speed it is adequate. Cams, exhaust and a tune helped get the performance to an acceptable level for me.

I like your perspective. I rode Harleys exclusively for 30 years. Had a Honda and a Suzuki before that. For as long as I can remember, stretching back to childhood memories as far back as 1958, I have loved all things two-wheeled. From my Western Flyer and Raleigh bicycles thru to all my motorcycles, loved them all. I still miss my FXR Super Glide. Comfort, great handling for a Harley, averaged about 45 mpg, put well over 100K miles on it. My RT is decidedly the better overall bike, but I do miss the comfort of the FXR. If Harley would have kept making those, and improved the suspension to meet modern standards, I'd still be riding one.

As for "The Uniform", and "The type of rider who rides a Harley", I've ridden with nearly all types, made the pilgrimage to Sturgis etc., and rarely completely fit in with any. For a couple years I wore a police style "shorty" helmet, white, I did hop up the FXR a little; cam, carb, Super Trapp exhaust is tunable, makes more power without much more noise. I had friends who'd ride up beside me and cup their hand by their ear, "Is your bike running?" My wife and I would be riding somewhere and run into "bikers" who'd let us know: "You're in a FREE state now, you can take that helmet off"..."I'm an RN, working in an ER, just as soon dress for the slide, not the ride". Sidelong glances ensued. Like I care! Now I wear a Bell Modular, white, with Sena 30K communication.

Once, in Arizona, an older couple approached us and asked; "You're not from here, are you?"
"We're from TN" my wife replied.
"Well, we wondered" said the woman, "Out here none of the Harley riders ever wear helmets, or Gore-tex, or much of any protective gear at all, but you two are covered!"
"Yeah, it gets hot sometimes, but we can work around that. Beats scrubbing scabs off, or worse."

I guess I've always considered disdain for other brands to be akin to racism. I always figured I have a whole lot more in common than I have that separates me from the other rider, or color, or religion, or whatever.

So, I responded to PoorUB's post in particular because I've yet to ride in North Dakota. I've missed a few of the Northern Tier states, but North Dakota stands out because my Dad's family was from there, up in Cavalier. It's on "The List", assuming that government doesn't succeed in destroying the world economy before I can get there.

Ride what you like! If it makes you happy, I'm happy.

 

[lkchris]

I guess I've always considered disdain for other brands to be akin to racism.

I'm pretty sensitive to racism, but it can easily be seen as not the issue here.

From my point of view, the 45-degree V-twin is the most inappropriate and ridiculous configuration for a motorcycle engine imaginable. This is technical, not opinion.

This configuration means the rider sits with a cylinder head in his/her crotch and with an exhaust pipe running nearly parallel to his/her leg as it exits that head. There have been/maybe still are class action suits regarding Harley heat.

This configuration also can mean insufficient cooling of the rear cylinder ... to the extent some HD models have electronics to shut off the rear cylinder to protect it. Cool! Running on one! How about that sound!

Consider rider protection from engine heat provided by a BMW boxer twin in comparison. Cylinder heads and headers as far away as possible. That's design.

The only real, objective conclusion is Harleys are styled, not engineered.

Style comes and goes; engineering progresses. If Harley is dying, perhaps btdt applies.

And, methinks Porsche guys don't see themselves having much in common with HumVee guys. My "brothers" ride BMWs.

 

[cap]

...the 45-degree V-twin is the most inappropriate and ridiculous configuration for a motorcycle engine imaginable. This is technical, not opinion.

There are several brands of motorcycles that have used V-twin cylinder configurations successfully: Honda, Ducati, Suzuki among them.

 

[PoorUB]

Not any with a 45 degree, single crankpin that I am aware of. All are 60 or 90 degree and offset crankpins.

 

[Stebe]

I'm pretty sensitive to racism, but it can easily be seen as not the issue here.

Actually, when I wrote that I was thinking of a time at a Harley rally when some guys showed up on Japanese bikes and some yo-yo was standing there mouthing some very racist remarks, at a group of Germans, riding Japanese bikes. But, it may not have been the most appropriate wording off the top of my head. What I was getting at, as seen by the un-quoted part of the sentence, was simply that some people seem to truly hate one thing or another just because it isn't exactly what they want, or how they are, or what they believe, etc. I think the most inappropriate motorcycle I ever saw was the Dodge Tomahawk, but if you like it, I'm not going to put you down for it, or hate everything Dodge, I'd have to get rid of my truck! Sorry if you got the impression that I was suggesting you or anyone else who's contributed were racist, nothing could be farther from the truth.

 

[stevenrankin]

Latest

So I just got my BMWMOA magazine in the mail.

I am still trying to figure out BMW's thoughts and mind set in regard to building the R1800.

Like the author of the article in the magazine, time will tell if BMW wins or looses. It will be an interesting time.

Harley is declining for sure, and perhaps will die. I told my tale of woe regarding the company I worked for a tale of attempts to branch out into new avenues, to diversify. IF Harley has upper management who act properly, and don't have their heads up their rectums. They will survive.

Same goes for BMW.

As far as I am concerned, All of the motorcycle and auto industries will die or radically change in the next 30 perhaps 20 years. Be this from the younger people starting at their smart phones for all they need, to the outlawing of gasoline powered vehicles. The Center for disease control could in the swipe of a pen declare motorcycle too dangerous and ban them. The insurance companies could decide to stop paying for accident injuries suffered while riding.

Won't matter much to me, I bought my last new motorcycle 36 years ago, BMW never build anything after that which could convince me to buy new. In 5 or 20 years, my riding will most likely be over. Perhaps then I will join a fishing club and discuss the best places to park my butt and wet a line.

For now, I am going riding, cheers, St.

 

[Anyname]

Based on my observations, Harley Davidson could be a profitable company if all they did was sell T-shirts and Doo-rags.

I think they are in for some hard times since the supply of good condition used HD bikes makes for tough competition for their new machines. I can't imagine they will fold though.

 

[PoorUB]

I hear that all the time. How would they survive when t-shirts and the other merchandise is only 5% of the company's income?? No question that general merchandise is very profitable, but HD is not going to survive or die because of it.

Actually the financial division, (loans for motorcycles to customers) is a way larger income producer.

Go to HD's web site and find their annual financial reports. It is all there.

 

[Voni]

https://advrider.com/bmw-and-harley...utm_campaign=editorial&utm_content=06_09_2020

 

[gregfeeler]

https://advrider.com/bmw-and-harley...utm_campaign=editorial&utm_content=06_09_2020

Voni,
Thanks for the link, but the article by my reading really didn't provide any parallels between BMW and H-D - at least not contemporary comparisons. IMO, H-D's biggest problem is how they have painted themselves into the dwindling "Boomer" corner of the M/C market. BMW, and almost all other bike companies are struggling with the overall decline of the general motorcycle market, but within that market, BMW is very competitive. Said another way, if by some miracle the overall sales of motorcycles in the U.S. (and the world) were to go back to pre-Great Recession levels, BMW and most other bike manufactures would be doing well. However, even though H-D might enjoy a small temporary bump in sales, they would still have the same problem they have now of sitting by a dying campfire.